# Campaign Finance Reform is a flop. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 18, 2004, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/campaign-finance-reform-is-a-flop/260458 "2004-08-18T21:19:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/campaign-finance-reform-is-a-flop/260458/41 "2004-08-19T22:33:25Z")
Guess our local news is biased! That they would interpret GW’s comment as a specific condemnation. Or maybe I just misunderstood… nah… I recall them specifically saying that each candidate condemned the ads slamming the other. Must be news bias (in a Democratic-run state, no less!). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/campaign-finance-reform-is-a-flop/260458/42 "2004-08-19T23:18:25Z")
Certainly, lacking access to news would entirely explain your misunderstanding. Pity you don’t have a computer. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/campaign-finance-reform-is-a-flop/260458/43 "2004-08-20T00:40:45Z")
There is absolutely no proof that the Bush campaign has anything at all to do with the Swift Vets ad, and I don’t believe they do. The sole piece of evidence the dems have offered is that (GASP!) a Republican has donated $100,000 to their cause, and he’s a TEXAS Republican! That’s pretty much it, from what I can tell. The vast majority of the funding for the Swiftvets has come from the grassroots campaign. I’d like to hear the evidence you have for the assertion that ‘everyone knows’ the Swift Vets are a Bush campaign smear job. On the other hand, a bigwig from [MoveOn.org](http://MoveOn.org) is now working for the Kerry campaign. Yet, I haven’t heard Bush screaming that Kerry should do something about MoveOn. Incidentally, did Kerry break the law when he demanded that MoveOn take their ad off the air? I was under the impression that ‘527’ groups could not coordinate with a candidate in any way. Isn’t telling them to remove an ad from the air a violation of this? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/campaign-finance-reform-is-a-flop/260458/44 "2004-08-20T00:56:55Z")
I would really like to focus on the issue at hand, not just the specifics of the Swiftboat people. There are multiple threads for that… And no, I’m not talking to any one person. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/campaign-finance-reform-is-a-flop/260458/45 "2004-08-20T01:00:38Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Certainly, lacking access to news would entirely explain your misunderstanding. Pity you don’t have a computer. I don’t waste my time on news websites or TV news. Every spare minute I have goes into a website called The Straight Dope Message Board (which I access psychically, of course); I receive my news there. But how could I expect you to know that? ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/campaign-finance-reform-is-a-flop/260458/46 "2004-08-20T01:06:54Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > I’d like to hear the evidence you have for the assertion that ‘everyone knows’ the Swift Vets are a Bush campaign smear job. How _DARE_ you?!? Mr. Kerry’s website says so, and every email I’ve received from his campaign headquarters says so! What more evidence do we need? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/campaign-finance-reform-is-a-flop/260458/47 "2004-08-20T02:32:57Z")
I’ve got a question for **Minty** or **Dewey** or one of the other resident lawyers: There’s a big debate right now over whether the President or Kerry should tell these people on both sides to get their ads off the air. Kerry is calling for Bush to demand that the Swiftvets pull their ad, and Kerry has told MoveOn to remove theirs. All issues of partisanship aside, I’d like to know if this is legal. My understanding of the ‘527’ organizations is that they could not coordinate with the official campaigns in any way. If a candidate comes out and instructs them to do something and they follow suit, is that not a violation of the law? What if a pro-Bush group comes out with an attack ad on Kerry that Bush’s advisors have decided will actually hurt Bush more, so they come out and say, “Hey you guys, get that scurrilous ad off the air!”. Legal? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/campaign-finance-reform-is-a-flop/260458/48 "2004-08-20T06:52:46Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > There’s a big debate right now over whether the President or Kerry should tell these people on both sides to get their ads off the air. Kerry is calling for Bush to demand that the Swiftvets pull their ad, and Kerry has told MoveOn to remove theirs. I agree that it would certainly be illegal for either candidate to “demand” that a 527 org pull a specific ad. But note that Kerry is only challengeing Bush to DENOUNCE the ad, not to ask for its removal. Big differnce. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/campaign-finance-reform-is-a-flop/260458/49 "2004-08-20T07:11:20Z")
Not Kerry. Chris Matthews tonight went on about how Bush should pick up the phone and call these guys and have the ad pulled. I’m pretty sure that would be illegal. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/campaign-finance-reform-is-a-flop/260458/50 "2004-08-20T14:49:22Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Not Kerry. Chris Matthews tonight went on about how Bush should pick up the phone and call these guys and have the ad pulled. I’m pretty sure that would be illegal. Well, you wrote Kerry, not Chris Matthews in your post. And yeah, I heard CM say that on Hardball yesterday, but I also heard him question a few days ago whether or not that would be legal. He’s kind of all over the map on this. Personally, I think both candidates should ignore these ads. To communicate anything at all to the organizers would violate the spirit, if not the letter, of the law. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/campaign-finance-reform-is-a-flop/260458/51 "2004-08-20T15:26:10Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Bush should pick up the phone and _call these guys_ and have the ad pulled. I’m pretty sure that would be **illegal**. > [@John Mace](#): > > To _communicate anything at all_ to the organizers **would violate the spirit, if not the letter, of the law**. It’s crazy to hear people even discussing this. CFR crossed a very dangerous line. We are now seriously discussing if the politicians currently running for US president can say certain things to certain people without breaking a law. Free speach? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/campaign-finance-reform-is-a-flop/260458/52 "2004-08-20T15:29:22Z")
D’oh! **Free speech?** ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/campaign-finance-reform-is-a-flop/260458/53 "2004-08-20T15:37:01Z")
\*\*Sam \*\* and **Debaser** , you’re misconstruing (for reasons best known to yourself) what actions are legal and what ones not. Nobody is demanding that Bush \*order \* or _instruct_or \*tell \* anybody to do anything, as you say, and yes that doubtless would be illegal. The suggestion is that he \*express displeasure \* with the ad and \*request \* that it be pulled, just as Kerry did with MoveOn’s ad. The organization is under no obligation to do so, though. That approach is not only legal, but proper etiquette, and (more to the point) politically advantageous if the ad has a negative effect. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/campaign-finance-reform-is-a-flop/260458/54 "2004-08-20T16:14:28Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Explain to me please, **2sense** , how murder is protected by the First Amendment. You know, like political speech is. Explain to me, **Mr. Moto,** how the First Amendment guarantees your right to buy television advertising time. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/campaign-finance-reform-is-a-flop/260458/55 "2004-08-20T16:21:11Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > It is a sad time indeed, **Brain** , when the cynic must defend his cynicism. Money is likewise the lubricant of both governance and elections. To think that any Congress will ever force any TV station to air political ad without charge or compensation is simply fantastic. There are two things that make anything happen in this world – the prospect of making a Buck or the fear of getting a bullet in the brain. I cannot imagine a representative of the Federal Elections Commissions telling the Channel 7 station manager that if he doesn’t run some ad for free the station manager is likely to catch two in the ear. > > I am still persuaded that, first the example of FDR is unenlightening and that, second, real campaign reform is contrary to the interests of people seeking election to public office. But, **Spavined Gelding,** in other countries the practice of requiring TV stations to provide free air time to candidates is **routine.** Just ask **clairobscur.** Why should the U.S. be any different? And the FEC doesn’t have to threaten to shoot the staton manager to enforce the rule, they just have to threaten to have the FCC pull the station’s license. Campaign finance reform is actually **favorable** to the interests of people seeking election to public office. They are, after all, the ones who are stuck with the cost of the system as it is now. You think politicians **like** having to go around and solicit donations and raise millions of dollars every election cycle? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/campaign-finance-reform-is-a-flop/260458/56 "2004-08-20T16:29:23Z")
> [@furt](#): > > I’d like it if any of those who are satisfied with CFR to address the 3 specific criticisms leveled in the OP. I won’t, because I’m **not** satisfied with CFR as it is now. We’ve still got the candidates going around raising money. We have to make it, not merely difficult, but **impossible** for **anybody,** including the candidates themselves, to influence the outcome of any public election by spending money on it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/campaign-finance-reform-is-a-flop/260458/57 "2004-08-20T16:35:33Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The suggestion is that he \*express displeasure \* with the ad and \*request \* that it be pulled, just as Kerry did with MoveOn’s ad. And, like I said, that clearly violates the spirit of the law if not th letter of the law. The whole idea is that these 527s don’t coordinate their actions with a candidate. If one of them constantly “suggests” which ads are good and which are bad, how is that different in effect than if they meet with the organizers on a regular basis and plan ad strategy. Which illustrates why most CFR, and this law in particular, is a waste of time. It simply does nothing to prevent what it’s supposed to prevent. It only obscures the source. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/campaign-finance-reform-is-a-flop/260458/58 "2004-08-20T17:49:09Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Explain to me please, 2sense, how murder is protected by the First Amendment. You know, like political speech is. > > > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > > Explain to me, **Mr. Moto,** how the First Amendment guarantees your right to buy television advertising time. **BrainGlutton** , why don’t you explain to all of us how the first ammendment guarantees your right to: 1. Put up a sign for a particular candidate. 2. Write letters to elected officials regarding issues. 3. Talk about politics at the office water cooler. 4. Distribute newsletters containing political topics. These things are all examples of first ammendment protections. Just like buying television advertising time is. What is it that people don’t understand about the wording… Congress shall make **no law** … It doesn’t say “Congress shall make no law, except with regards to television advertising, …” ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/campaign-finance-reform-is-a-flop/260458/59 "2004-08-20T17:59:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > We have to make it, not merely difficult, but impossible for anybody, including the candidates themselves, to influence the outcome of any public election by spending money on it. Please tell me you’re not really this naive. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/campaign-finance-reform-is-a-flop/260458/60 "2004-08-20T18:08:42Z")
**John** , it does violate the spirit of the law, yes. But our interlocutors are asserting it violates the \*letter \* of the law, as their choice of words shows, and it clearly doesn’t. I don’t have any more really good ideas about how to fix the overall problem than you do, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/campaign-finance-reform-is-a-flop/260458.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/campaign-finance-reform-is-a-flop/260458.md?page=4)