# Camping, Defense, and the First Person Shooter **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 1, 2010, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camping-defense-and-the-first-person-shooter/552304 "2010-09-01T20:21:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camping-defense-and-the-first-person-shooter/552304/41 "2010-09-02T20:15:45Z")
> [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > Still cheating. We’ll have to agree to disagree then. I don’t see it as any different at all from remapping the controls. My distinction is as follows: Available to everyone and built into the game engine? Legal. Not available to everyone, and built into the game engine? Questionable. Not built into the game engine: Cheating. Note that this leads to the entirely idiosyncratic opinion that complex control binds are totally kosher, but games with retardedly large requirements for unlocking weapons (I’m looking RIGHT AT YOU, Modern Warfare) have questionable conduct built right in. What’s your position on that, then? IMHO the ACOG scopes in COD4 are FAR more game-breakingly awesome than a burstfire macro in CounterStrike. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camping-defense-and-the-first-person-shooter/552304/42 "2010-09-02T20:16:13Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **Kobal2** , was the script you wrote using an in-game scripting facility, or was it something like a Windows script? If the former, then you were just making fuller use of a designed feature of the game, but if the latter, then it was cheating (albeit relatively minor cheating). I simply edited the key binds file in notepad to make use of existing in-game functions available to anyone. I could have done the same from within the in-game console, but then I’d have had to rewrite the bind every time I booted the game. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camping-defense-and-the-first-person-shooter/552304/43 "2010-09-02T20:16:46Z")
> [@Palooka](#): > > > [@Bosstone](#): > > > > Features versus bugs. You can have an intentional feature in a game that nevertheless is unbalancing and it’ll still be separate from making the game do something it shouldn’t. > > How do you know what’s intended and what’s an oversight? The documentation is a start. Counterstrike’s console commands are well known and well-documented, and there’s even a configuration menu option to bind a key to open the scripting interface in-game (handy as hell for us server admin types, lemme tell you that). ---
**Author:** ![Palooka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/palooka/32/2902_2.png) [@Palooka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palooka)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camping-defense-and-the-first-person-shooter/552304/44 "2010-09-02T20:23:46Z")
So you’d agree that changing your lambert setting to make guys glow in the dark wasn’t cheating, right? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camping-defense-and-the-first-person-shooter/552304/45 "2010-09-02T20:31:05Z")
> [@Palooka](#): > > So you’d agree that changing your lambert setting to make guys glow in the dark wasn’t cheating, right? Hell, the default graphics settings did that for most people I know–I mean, this IS CounterStrike 1.x we’re talking about here. The right way to deal with this sort of thing, IMHO, is the way the UnReal engine has tended to do it–their consoles simply don’t allow bound scripts and macros to the same extent. Nor do most other modern games. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camping-defense-and-the-first-person-shooter/552304/46 "2010-09-02T20:31:16Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > > [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > > > Still cheating. > > We’ll have to agree to disagree then. I don’t see it as any different at all from remapping the controls. > > My distinction is as follows: > Available to everyone and built into the game engine? Legal. > Not available to everyone, and built into the game engine? Questionable. > Not built into the game engine: Cheating. > > Note that this leads to the entirely idiosyncratic opinion that complex control binds are totally kosher, but games with retardedly large requirements for unlocking weapons (I’m looking RIGHT AT YOU, Modern Warfare) have questionable conduct built right in. > > What’s your position on that, then? IMHO the ACOG scopes in COD4 are FAR more game-breakingly awesome than a burstfire macro in CounterStrike. I have yet to find an ACOG sight in a Call of Duty that wasn’t complete dogshit. ---
**Author:** ![Palooka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/palooka/32/2902_2.png) [@Palooka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palooka)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camping-defense-and-the-first-person-shooter/552304/47 "2010-09-02T20:42:55Z")
**LOUNE** is right. The ACOG was shit. The best weapon was the unmodded AK47, which everyone started with. Not that it mattered since everyone just used the promod that enabled everything (or imported a level 55 hash). ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camping-defense-and-the-first-person-shooter/552304/48 "2010-09-02T20:48:27Z")
> [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > I have yet to find an ACOG sight in a Call of Duty that wasn’t complete dogshit. This may be a difference between PC and console gameplay–in my group, M4+ACOG was king of the battlefield. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camping-defense-and-the-first-person-shooter/552304/49 "2010-09-02T20:49:34Z")
> [@Palooka](#): > > **LOUNE** is right. The ACOG was shit. The best weapon was the unmodded AK47, which everyone started with. Not that it mattered since everyone just used the promod that enabled everything (or imported a level 55 hash). I didn’t, that would have been cheating in my mind. I probably should have, when I lost my online profile during my last OS upgrade, but I found it easier to just stop playing COD4 instead. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camping-defense-and-the-first-person-shooter/552304/50 "2010-09-02T20:51:55Z")
> [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > Yep. Cheating. I would argue that programming your gun to fire 3-round burst instead of full auto is a minor form of cheating compared to say, modifying the balistics or damage properties. In Battlefield: Bad Company 2, there is a map called Atacama Desert. It’s a big desert map consisting of two large opposing deployment bases containing helicopters, tanks and light vehicles for each team to spawn at (as well as AT and AAA defenses) that can’t be flag-captured. Between each team’s base are 2 villages and the rusted hulk of a beached container ship, each containing a capturable spawn flag. If you are playing on a particularly shitty team, it is entirely possible for the other team to capture all the flags, leaving you with just your deployment base to spawn at. If the other team is organized, they can pretty much fuck you by stealing your helicopter and tanks and just camping in front of your last spawn point blowing the shit out of you as you enter the game. But even then, it is often possible to sneak out of the kill zone while the enemy is fixated on your base and capture another flag where you can regroup and counterattack. The point is, if your team provides some basic defense or base security, you shouldn’t get to that point in the first place. Some questionable, but fun dickhead tactics I enjoy: The base infiltrator - sneak into the enemies base with a sniper rifle or silenced smg and pick off people as they respawn. It also allows some other tactics: Helicopter jacking - Kill any nearby bad guys and steal their helicopter. Now your team has 2. If you can get to it, wait until they are about to take off and destroy it on the ground with a rocket or C4. The car bomb - plant some C4 on a vehicle and wait until they go to use it. Then blammo. The stealth tank - On hardcore mode (no enemy icons), jump into an enemy tank in front of their base. Use the commanders machinegun turret instead of the main gun to kill infantry. It’s much harder to tell that you have commandeered the tank if the main turret isn’t moving. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camping-defense-and-the-first-person-shooter/552304/51 "2010-09-02T20:56:02Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > The base infiltrator - sneak into the enemies base with a sniper rifle or silenced smg and pick off people as they respawn. It also allows some other tactics: Couple this with “being the commander” and “knowing how to spot for artillery” in Battlefield 2, and this is my absolute favorite thing in any first person shooter to do. I WILL rain doom upon the heads of my doomed enemies, and I WILL make them have to root me out of the weeds on that nearby hilltop to stop it from happening. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camping-defense-and-the-first-person-shooter/552304/52 "2010-09-02T21:06:25Z")
> [@](#): > > If you are playing on a particularly shitty team, it is entirely possible for the other team to capture all the flags, leaving you with just your deployment base to spawn at. If the other team is organized, they can pretty much fuck you by stealing your helicopter and tanks and just camping in front of your last spawn point blowing the shit out of you as you enter the game. That’s not “camping”, that’s “kicking butt”. What do you expect to happen, if you let the enemy set up at strongpoints inside your own base? ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camping-defense-and-the-first-person-shooter/552304/53 "2010-09-02T21:18:59Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > > [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > > > Yep. Cheating. > > I would argue that programming your gun to fire 3-round burst instead of full auto is a minor form of cheating compared to say, modifying the balistics or damage properties. > In Battlefield: Bad Company 2, there is a map called Atacama Desert. It’s a big desert map consisting of two large opposing deployment bases containing helicopters, tanks and light vehicles for each team to spawn at (as well as AT and AAA defenses) that can’t be flag-captured. Between each team’s base are 2 villages and the rusted hulk of a beached container ship, each containing a capturable spawn flag. > > If you are playing on a particularly shitty team, it is entirely possible for the other team to capture all the flags, leaving you with just your deployment base to spawn at. If the other team is organized, they can pretty much fuck you by stealing your helicopter and tanks and just camping in front of your last spawn point blowing the shit out of you as you enter the game. > > But even then, it is often possible to sneak out of the kill zone while the enemy is fixated on your base and capture another flag where you can regroup and counterattack. > > The point is, if your team provides some basic defense or base security, you shouldn’t get to that point in the first place. > Some questionable, but fun dickhead tactics I enjoy: > The base infiltrator - sneak into the enemies base with a sniper rifle or silenced smg and pick off people as they respawn. It also allows some other tactics: > > Helicopter jacking - Kill any nearby bad guys and steal their helicopter. Now your team has 2. If you can get to it, wait until they are about to take off and destroy it on the ground with a rocket or C4. > > The car bomb - plant some C4 on a vehicle and wait until they go to use it. Then blammo. > > The stealth tank - On hardcore mode (no enemy icons), jump into an enemy tank in front of their base. Use the commanders machinegun turret instead of the main gun to kill infantry. It’s much harder to tell that you have commandeered the tank if the main turret isn’t moving. If you’re kicking the other team’s ass so bad that you’re in their spawns, moving their vehicles away from them and pinning them back, you’re kicking their ass. The question should be raised, though: should vehicles be present? If a good team, plopped into that scenario couldn’t get out of it, that shows balance issues with that game. And yes, I agree with you. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camping-defense-and-the-first-person-shooter/552304/54 "2010-09-02T21:26:16Z")
Field-of-fire, traffic route, blind-fire, or predictable-newb camping: Yes Spawn camping: No. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camping-defense-and-the-first-person-shooter/552304/55 "2010-09-02T22:07:05Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > > > There are whiny babies in every game. > > > > “Fucking chainsaws! You HAVE to use the fucking chainsaw kill me! Fucking newbs, man!” > > “Fucking noobtubes! You couldn’t win without them! Fucking newbs, man!” > > > > Camping is a viable tactic. This is coming from someone who doesn’t camp. > > As long as the camper doesn’t complain when they do get noob-tubed. > I have a specific build that I use to root out campers in MW2 and it works well for me. > > OTOH, I have said before that MW2 is the best balanced game ever since everyone is pissed off by something… Well, if the camper _does_ complain it doesn’t reduce the viability of his camping, it just makes him a whiny baby who happens to camp. ---
**Author:** ![Windwalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/5e9695/32.png) [@Windwalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Windwalker)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camping-defense-and-the-first-person-shooter/552304/56 "2010-09-02T22:33:22Z")
Basically the only kind of camping that the TF2 servers I play on disapprove of is spawn camping, and some allow even that. They’ll all allow spawn raiding, though, where you go to their spawn area, murder some of their team, and then move on (notably on KOTH maps). This is as it should be. The only placed you’re forced to be is spawn, so having all the exits guarded by say 2 demomen each would be patently unfair and unfun. Everything else goes, as camping’s main drawback is that you’re not actively contributing to your team a lot, or even the majority, of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camping-defense-and-the-first-person-shooter/552304/57 "2010-09-02T22:42:50Z")
‘acceptable’ is a strong word. it’s not my place to accept or reject play styles. But it is within my rights to dislike or even hate play styles. And there are different levels of ‘camping’. There’s defending an objective. - not dislikeable. There’s holding down an area of a map. - not dislikeable. There’s hiding in a corner indefinitely, with your aim key held down, pointing at a doorway or passage. - very dislikeable. Personally I find much more loathsome the use of overpowered weaponry at the expense of level-playing-field type fun. But that’s not the fault of the player (although I will go so far as to call the player a pussy for opting to take advantage of the overpowered weapon) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camping-defense-and-the-first-person-shooter/552304/58 "2010-09-03T01:08:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Personally I find much more loathsome the use of overpowered weaponry at the expense of level-playing-field type fun. But that’s not the fault of the player (although I will go so far as to call the player a pussy for opting to take advantage of the overpowered weapon) It’s still a level playing field if the other player had the same opportunity to go for the BFG that I did. It’s not my fault they’re bringing a gun to a nuke fight. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camping-defense-and-the-first-person-shooter/552304/59 "2010-09-03T01:30:42Z")
Now team saturation bombing with grenade and rocket launchers is pretty weak. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camping-defense-and-the-first-person-shooter/552304/60 "2010-09-03T02:02:08Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Now team saturation bombing with grenade and rocket launchers is pretty weak. So you’ve played Tribes 2 then? Yet another game where the combo of a skilled spotter and several mortar-competent players can get hilariously brutal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camping-defense-and-the-first-person-shooter/552304.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camping-defense-and-the-first-person-shooter/552304.md?page=4)