Can a blow to the head damage the brain?

[Wizard_One]

@anon11

I have been at live matches, where someone hit’s a hard shot and a player, recognising that the ball is goalbound, sticks a head on the ball. It’s a kind of “take one for the team” situation. I question if a player can constrict his neck muscles in such a reflex situation.

I’m quite sure someone WOULD tense their neck muscles in such a situation, it’s automatic when expecting an impact.
But, then the skull and brain take the FULL force of impact, rather than with relaxed neck muscles absorbing the impact.

[Wizard_One]

@R.P.McMurphy

I’m not making this up. I thought it was just another concussion. “I’ll get better. It’s happened before.” Denial isn’t just a river in Africa. I sort of made an excuse to go see the doctor who recognized the seriousness of the problem and literally saved my life. The MRI was unbelievable. It was a very slow bleed. Thankfully. If it was a faster bleed I would have checked out. I’m not proud of my stupidity in regard to the condition.

I guess when I read the title of the OP I’m thinking, “Are you 'effin, kidding me? Let me tell you, a blow to the head can not only damage the brain, it can kill you.” Of course, everyone is different. The brain does tend to desensitize itself to trauma. Boxers are an extreme example. After that comes football players and hockey players. They absorb punishment and the redundant systems in the brain make it possible for them to function with little indication that damage has occurred. That doesn’t mean that over time dementia won’t set in.

And yes, I think there have been lingering aftereffects. There are things that I think I used to be a lot sharper at. I wouldn’t want to try to go back to college. I would like to learn to fly a plane but I don’t think that would be a good idea.

Anyway, head injuries are not to be taken lightly.

I was shocked with the 1/4 of the skull being filled with blood. It’s uncommon for that to occur and significant damage isn’t done to the brain, due to compression.
Trust me, I’m all too aware of traumatic brain injury, both from treating soldiers with it and from direct, personal experience on a first hand basis.
I had one soldier who slipped and fell off of the transport truck, landing flat on his back. Initially, he was fine. Two hours later, he was suffering from visual difficulties and we evacuated him to the hospital, where it was found that he had a slow bleed.
Fortunately, there was no residual damage of significance, due to the rapid treatment. Though the medical center we transported him to initially wanted to drill his skull, his family objected and had him transported to a large medical center in Philadelphia, where a medical coma was induced to reduce damage and the bleed sealed itself. He was returned to duty a few weeks later.
In another case, high explosives caused significant damage to the vehicles and personnel, I was the only one close who remained conscious, though disoriented, balance was totally gone and I was vomiting all over the place. We ALL had some issues after…
I’m also infamous for leading with my chin in a fight…
So, I’m far from being a stranger to head injuries, both from response to soldiers receiving them and from receiving them myself during my over 27 year military career.
THAT said, I DO have some Parkinson’s resembling tremor now. My memory isn’t the greatest either.
BUT, I WOULD take a college course, I still learn faster than most and WOULD consider taking flying lessons, if I could afford them.
But, I was fortunate. I didn’t have personality shifts or similar events that others have had after an injury. It literally became a joke in my unit, that I had a built in kevlar helmet or that there was a large granite block on the top of my neck.
Personally, I think it was just my own physiology and plan dumb luck that I didn’t experience major damage over the years.

[constanze]

@Sal_Ammoniac

The idea that midfield players never head the ball is mystifying to me. Of course they head the ball, all the time. Every player on the field does, with the exception of the goalie, who heads the ball rarely, but who sometimes gets hit in the head with a shot. And starting from an incorrect assumption that, potentially, half the players on a given side never head the ball – well, I wonder what that does to the study results.

You misread the quote. It didn’t say “never” it said “rarely”, which means “less often”. If you watch a typical soccer match, most headers occur in the struggle around the goal, which are the offense of one side trying to get it in, and the defense of the other side trying to get it away.

Midfielders, by comparision, may accept a long shot by header - but then have time to prepare and do it correctly.

Offense and defense struggling in split seconds and taking any odd chance to score don’t have the opportunity to prepare and will head the ball any odd way, increasing damage.

[Sal_Ammoniac]

Constanze, I disagree with your post almost in toto. First of all, “rarely,” in my book, doesn’t mean “less often,” it means “very infrequently.” Goalies head the ball rarely – infrequently, but not never.

Secondly, you’ve introduced this notion of headers which are expected, and headers which are unexpected – a distinction which I don’t believe exists in the paper in question.

Thirdly, whether a midfielder heads the ball a lot or a little depends to a great deal on both the formation, and the player in question. A tall midfielder will often try to head home a cross from the wing, for example. On our local eleven, the New England Revolution of the MLS, the leading scorer, Shalrie Joseph, is in fact a defensive midfielder. And I can tell you that about half his goals have come off headers.

Plus, think of the typical situation on corner kicks, which might happen ten or 15 times a game. The ball is whipped into the box, and the person who gets a head on it is no less likely to be a midfielder than some other position.

I might… might… accept the proposition that the average midfielder heads the ball less than the average striker, or average outside back. But that’s still a long way from accepting the proposition that the average midfielder rarely, or still less never, heads the ball.

[isaiahrobinson]

@constanze

You misread the quote. It didn’t say “never” it said “rarely”, which means “less often”. If you watch a typical soccer match, most headers occur in the struggle around the goal, which are the offense of one side trying to get it in, and the defense of the other side trying to get it away.

Midfielders, by comparision, may accept a long shot by header - but then have time to prepare and do it correctly.

Offense and defense struggling in split seconds and taking any odd chance to score don’t have the opportunity to prepare and will head the ball any odd way, increasing damage.

Midfielders are usually involved in making headers in the “struggle around the goal” because they drop to defend set pieces. They also contend for headers regularly in the midfield itself, particularly from goal kicks.

More importantly though, you’ve once again asserted that heading the ball causes “damage” without providing any evidence. Can heading the ball really cause any extent of cumulative brain damage? It’s a huge claim to make given how popular football is, and the evidence cited so far doesn’t sound all that convincing (although admittedly I couldn’t read the full study quoted earlier in the thread, I could only access the abstract - does it provide good evidence for that point?).

[Wizard_One]

@isaiahrobinson

Midfielders are usually involved in making headers in the “struggle around the goal” because they drop to defend set pieces. They also contend for headers regularly in the midfield itself, particularly from goal kicks.

More importantly though, you’ve once again asserted that heading the ball causes “damage” without providing any evidence. Can heading the ball really cause any extent of cumulative brain damage? It’s a huge claim to make given how popular football is, and the evidence cited so far doesn’t sound all that convincing (although admittedly I couldn’t read the full study quoted earlier in the thread, I could only access the abstract - does it provide good evidence for that point?).

I remember reading that report after it was released. I’ve since moved on, so that I cannot access it in full.
From my recollection, there was trending data sufficient to justify further study, but the overall conclusion was a bit overstretched, as controls weren’t considered, head time vs other accidental head impact (elbow, knee, ground, etc) wasn’t considered.
I know that there was a lot of talk at the time of further studies, but I have no idea if further studies actually happened, as funding IS a bit funny…

[anon11]

@treis

There’s a lot of evidence to suggest that repeated low intensity head trauma can cause long term cognitive problems. Whacking your head 10-15 times a day on a door frame probably would qualify.

That’s interesting. It was someone else’s house. At 6 ft 4, parts of it were like a dolls house to me. I was in a funny state that day. I kept walking through doorways thinking I fitted through them, only to find out via a bump to my head that I didn’t. Maybe my vision was off.

With all the talk of speed and weight of impact on here, it makes me wonder if even repeated blows from a firm pillow can cause damage. A size firm feather pillow or a memory foam weighs 100-150 grams and you can swing them much quicker then a boxer swings his fist, albeit less impact.

[anon11]

Also, does pressing your head against something heavy cause damage? Like sleeping on a brick.

[anon11]

@anon11

With all the talk of speed and weight of impact on here, it makes me wonder if even repeated blows from a firm pillow can cause damage. A size firm feather pillow or a memory foam weighs 100-150 grams and you can swing them much quicker then a boxer swings his fist, albeit less impact.

Could someone answer this. Plus the question above.

[anon11]

bump

[anon11]

bump

[ryan]

@anon11

Also, does pressing your head against something heavy cause damage? Like sleeping on a brick.

Can I assume you mean against something hard as opposed to heavy?
That would only involve the weight of your head and the force applied via your neck. It might do some damage to soft tissues on the outside of your skull and almost certainly be uncomfortable, but the brain is still inside the skull.
So, no.

[anon11]

@anon11

With all the talk of speed and weight of impact on here, it makes me wonder if even repeated blows from a firm pillow can cause damage. A size firm feather pillow or a memory foam weighs 100-150 grams and you can swing them much quicker then a boxer swings his fist, albeit less impact.

bump

[Telemark]

@anon11

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[anon11]

Okay. Sorry, I was being selfish. This is not something that I urgently need a reply to. I’m just curious.

[kenobi_65]

Have you considered talking to an actual doctor about all of your concerns?

[Nava]

@kenobi_65

Two things:

1. Yes, the force of a boxer’s punch can cause brain damage. That doesn’t necessarily mean that the force of a soccer header (which is, yes, undoubtedly less) doesn’t cause brain damage. The “boxer’s punch” isn’t necessarily the minimum threshhold for brain damage.

I wouldn’t be sure about the heading being less strong: a small ball (softer than an official soccer ball) being tossed around by some of my classmates netted me a new pair of glasses and one of those spectacular butterfly bruises which make you look like you’ve been smacked by Cassius Clay. They were aiming to hit (mis-aiming, in the case of the throw that hit me) but not to hurt, but I had to sit in a different desk until I was able to wear glasses again.

[anon11]

Could a study not just scan the brains of the players before they have heading practice and after? Would this not indicate if any actual physical damage to the brain has occured?

[kenobi_65]

@anon11

Could a study not just scan the brains of the players before they have heading practice and after? Would this not indicate if any actual physical damage to the brain has occured?

My strong suspicion would be that the effects of a single practice’s worth of headers wouldn’t be enough to be readily noticeable in that kind of study. Based on what that prior study suggests, it sounds like it’s the cumulative effect of (likely) thousands and thousands of headers over the course of years of play which is the issue.

Similarly, in American football, while there is certainly concern over players suffering concussions (and the long-term effects of those), there is also concern over players suffering many lesser blows to the head over years of play – those blows may not be powerful enough to cause concussions, but it still appears that they are causing damage over time.

[anon11]

Thanks, I guess this is a subject that shall remain inconclusive.