# Can a British noble be upgraded? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 1, 2005, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-british-noble-be-upgraded/292461 "2005-03-01T17:49:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-british-noble-be-upgraded/292461/1 "2005-03-01T17:49:52Z")
I’m aware that respected British commoners are awarded titles of nobility as a reward for their service. And I’m aware that there are several different ranks of nobility. My question then is whether anyone’s ever gotten an upgrade from a lower ranking title to a higher one. For example, let’s say Tony Blair leaves office and Queen Elizabeth makes him a Baron. Ten years later, Charles is King and thinks Blair got short-changed. Can he now make Blair an Earl or is Blair stuck in his first title for life? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-british-noble-be-upgraded/292461/2 "2005-03-01T17:56:41Z")
Your thread title reminds me of a totally irrelevant **Wizard of Id** cartoon. King (to shopkeeper): Do you discount royalty? Shopkeeper: No, they serve their purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-british-noble-be-upgraded/292461/3 "2005-03-01T18:08:49Z")
Absolutely. It used to be a fairly common practice to “promote” a noble who had rendered some valuable service by granting him a higher title. The one case in British history of a man who started out as “pure” commoner and was awarded a knighthood and all five “ranks” of the nobility, separately, one after the other, is Arthur Wellesley, General and Field Marshal during the Napoleonic Wars, who is better known by his last title, first Duke of Wellington. But he was separately created baron, viscount, earl, marquess, and duke, and knighted (Order of the Bath, Knight Grand Cross) between 1809 and 1815. Sir Thomas Howard was rewarded, during the Wars of the Roses, by being made Baron and then Viscount Howard, and then created Earl of Norfolk, becoming the first ancestor of the present Dukes of Norfolk. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-british-noble-be-upgraded/292461/4 "2005-03-01T18:37:12Z")
Of course one way to upgrade is through marriage, e.g. when Diana married Charles, she went from Lady to Princess. ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-british-noble-be-upgraded/292461/5 "2005-03-01T18:41:17Z")
Further question, then: When a noble is “upgraded” from, say, Baron of Whozzits to Earl of Whatzits, does the barony no longer exist, or is it treated as a separate title? Does a noble ever go from Baron of Whozzits to Earl of Whozzits? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-british-noble-be-upgraded/292461/6 "2005-03-01T19:28:17Z")
The individual continues to hold all the titles and they all descend to his heirs. Yes, a single person can hold both the titles “Baron Whozzits” and “Earl of Whozzits.” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-british-noble-be-upgraded/292461/7 "2005-03-01T19:39:24Z")
For example, Prince Charles holds all these titles simultaneously – Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick, Baron Renfrew, Lord of the Isles, Prince and Great Steward of Scotland, Knight Companion of the Most Noble Order of the Garter, Knight of the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle, Great Master and First and Principal Knight Grand Cross of the Most Honourable Order of the Bath, Member of the Order of Merit, Knight of the Order of Australia, Member of the Queen’s Service Order, Lord of Her Majesty’s Most Honourable Privy Council, Aide-de-Camp to Her Majesty. And I’m pretty sure there exist a few peerages with titles along the lines of “Duke and Earl of X.” ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-british-noble-be-upgraded/292461/8 "2005-03-01T19:42:56Z")
Upgrades are also available if you earn enough Frequent Flyer points. :rolleyes: Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-british-noble-be-upgraded/292461/9 "2005-03-01T19:43:10Z")
The Duke of Wellington simultaneously holds all these titles: - Duke of Wellington - Marquess of Wellington - Marquess Douro - Earl of Mornington (Ireland) - Earl of Wellington - Viscount Wellesley (Ireland) - Viscount Wellington - Baron Mornington (Ireland) - Baron Douro (1809) ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-british-noble-be-upgraded/292461/10 "2005-03-01T21:07:29Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > The individual continues to hold all the titles and they all descend to his heirs. Yes, a single person can hold both the titles “Baron Whozzits” and “Earl of Whozzits.” A peer with more than one title “lends” his next most senior peerage as a courtesy title to his heirs. As an example, Antony Armstrong-Jones, who married Princess Margaret, was created \*Earl of Snowdon \* and \*Viscount Linley \* in 1961. His son David is known by the courtesy title of _Viscount Linley_, even though he is \*\*not \*\* actually the \*Viscount Linley \* - his father is. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-british-noble-be-upgraded/292461/11 "2005-03-01T21:38:42Z")
Once a person has multiple titles, is it ever possible (among his heirs) for those titles to be separated? Using the Wellington example, for instance, is it possible that at some time in the future, the Duke of Wellington and the Marquess Douro would be two separate people? Not just as a matter of courtesy titles, but officially, I mean. And what are the implications on membership in the House of Lords? Does a multiple-titled peer have multiple votes? ---
**Author:** ![Bytegeist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@Bytegeist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bytegeist)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-british-noble-be-upgraded/292461/12 "2005-03-01T21:57:27Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Prince Charles holds all these titles simultaneously – Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick, Baron Renfrew, Lord of the Isles, Prince and Great Steward of Scotland, Knight Companion of the Most Noble Order of the Garter, Knight of the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle, Great Master and First and Principal Knight Grand Cross of the Most Honourable Order of the Bath, Member of the Order of Merit, Knight of the Order of Australia, Member of the Queen’s Service Order, Lord of Her Majesty’s Most Honourable Privy Council, Aide-de-Camp to Her Majesty. … son of Gudleif, half brother of Thorgier, the priest of Ljosa water, who took to wife Thurunn, the mother of Thorkel Braggart, the slayer of Cudround the powerful, who knew Howal, son of Geernon, son of Erik from Valdalesc, son of Arval Gristlebeard, son of Harken, who killed Bjortguaard in Sochnadale in Norway over Cudreed, daughter of Thorkel Long, the son of Kettle-Trout, the half son of Harviyoun Half-troll, father of Ingbare the Brave, who with Isenbert of Gottenberg the daughter of Hangbard the Fierce … Well, we seem to be having a little trouble getting this Icelandic saga started. If any of you at home have ideas about how to get this exciting Icelandic saga started again, here’s the address to write to: \*HELP THE EXCITING ICELANDIC SAGA C/O MATCH OF THE DAY BBC TV THE LARCHES 26 WESTBROOK AVENUE FAVERSHAM KENT \* ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-british-noble-be-upgraded/292461/13 "2005-03-01T22:11:10Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Once a person has multiple titles, is it ever possible (among his heirs) for those titles to be separated? Using the Wellington example, for instance, is it possible that at some time in the future, the Duke of Wellington and the Marquess Douro would be two separate people? Not just as a matter of courtesy titles, but officially, I mean. This is perfectly possible. When each peerage is created, the rules of its descent are made explicit. Newer peerages generally descend to legitimate male heirs only. Older peerages may sometimes descend via female heirs in default of male heirs. This can lead to situations where peerages that had been held by the same person are split up on his death. Example: The \*Earldom of Sutherland \* is a very old peerage, created in 1230. It can descend via both males and females. The \*Dukedom of Sutherland \* is a much more recent creation (in 1833) and is restricted to males. In 1963, when the _5th Duke of Sutherland_ (who was also the _Earl of Sutherland_) died, the two titles split. The \*Earldom \* was inherited by the 5th Duke’s niece, who is now the \*Countess of Sutherland \* in her own right. The \*Dukedom \* was inherited by the 5th Duke’s closest male heir, who was a distant cousin (third cousin once removed or something like that). > [@Chronos](#): > > And what are the implications on membership in the House of Lords? Does a multiple-titled peer have multiple votes? Since the reform of the House of Lords, not all hereditary peers are entitled to sit in the House. Of those that are, it’s my understanding that each peer is entitled to only one vote, regardless of how many titles he has. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-british-noble-be-upgraded/292461/14 "2005-03-01T22:14:14Z")
All you ever wanted to know about official aspects of British nobility: [http://www.chinet.com/~laura/html/titles01.html](http://www.chinet.com/~laura/html/titles01.html) ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-british-noble-be-upgraded/292461/15 "2005-03-02T00:04:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Can a British noble be upgraded? It’s very easy. Just go to the website and download the latest Service Pack. Duke of Cornwall v1.3 ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-british-noble-be-upgraded/292461/16 "2005-03-02T00:11:07Z")
You _can_ upgrade nobles but it’s really not recommended. It’s a lot easier to back up your peasants and then just install the new version from scratch. The Service Packs cause as much trouble as they solve. IIRC this is what happened with the Russians and their Tsar v2.0. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-british-noble-be-upgraded/292461/17 "2005-03-02T00:14:27Z")
Nah, that was USSR error. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-british-noble-be-upgraded/292461/18 "2005-03-02T00:43:04Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > The individual continues to hold all the titles and they all descend to his heirs. Yes, a single person can hold both the titles “Baron Whozzits” and “Earl of Whozzits.” IIRC the higher-ranked nobles (viscount and higher) invariably possess lower titles. Usually the eldest son and heir bears one of the lesser titles, but only as a courtesy title; he can be addressed as Baron Whozzits, or Lord Whozzits, but is legally considered a commoner. I suspect that if the head of the family is high enough in the Peerage–at least an Earl, that the eldest son of the eldest son might also get to bear a courtesy title. All this only applies to nobles by inheritance, and not created peers. As for created peers, didn’t Laurence Olivier go through several ranks? At least, he was knighted, and then elevated to the peerage. ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-british-noble-be-upgraded/292461/19 "2005-03-02T01:08:44Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > As for created peers, didn’t Laurence Olivier go through several ranks? At least, he was knighted, and then elevated to the peerage. He was knighted in 1947. He was raised to the peerage (as a life peer only, not as a hereditary peer) in 1970 as _Baron Olivier of Brighton_. He was not promoted to any higher rank in the peerage, although he was further honoured with the Order of Merit in 1981. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-british-noble-be-upgraded/292461/20 "2005-03-02T02:47:44Z")
> [@manhattan](#): > > Nah, that was USSR error. Note to self: Reading the dope during lectures… REALLY bad idea :P. Now half the class (and the lecturer) think I’m a complete wierdo and it’s only the third day of the semester. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-british-noble-be-upgraded/292461.md?page=2)