# Can a case be made for outlawing false accusations? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 7, 2001, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-case-be-made-for-outlawing-false-accusations/71606 "2001-07-07T17:46:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2001, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-case-be-made-for-outlawing-false-accusations/71606/1 "2001-07-07T17:46:24Z")
In a pit thread **guinastasia** mentions a case where a person was falsely accused (flasely as admitted by the accuser) of rape. Having heard of at least two times this occurred apart from the case mentioned I shared in my disgust. **Drastic** then mentions, “False accusations of criminal activity should definitely face criminal penalties.” However, this poster wasn’t the only one to feel this way. I knee jerked at its first menion to think, “Damn right!” but now I am having some second thoughts. Though I have never before done such a thing, I would like to try and actually set some guides for this thread. [li]Is there any precident in any crime where false accusations cause automatic criminal prosecution of the false-accuser?[/li][li]I’m assuming most people will agree that falsely accusing someone is a terrible thing to do, but will making this a criminal offense (if the accusation was a criminal offense and not a civil matter) really help anything? That is, are there any hidden problems with such a law?[/li] As far as the first point goes, the only thing I could think of off the top of my head was the whole airport securty thing where even joking about bombs and such WILL land you in a hep of trouble. As for the second point, though it is bad enough that people will falsely accuse another person of a crime, won’t a subsequently reflective criminal charge merely stop people from even admitting they lied? As well, what sort of reasonable limits can we place on such retaliatory punishment? Would we need to show, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the person who accused another had reason to believe it was the case? That is, what if it can be demonstrated that the person couldn’t, in his or her right mind, construe the accusation as true? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2001, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-case-be-made-for-outlawing-false-accusations/71606/2 "2001-07-07T17:58:46Z")
Filing a false police report is already against the law. So is perjury, and attempted perjury. ---
**Author:** ![McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e19adc/32.png) [@McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2001, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-case-be-made-for-outlawing-false-accusations/71606/3 "2001-07-07T18:03:20Z")
I am wholeheartedly in favour of punishments for false accusers. If a liar is able to take an accusation to full trial their punishment for false accusation should be as severe as the punishment their victim would have got. It might make them less likely to confess their lies but it will also make it less likely they’ll lie in the first place. Either way we shouldn’t let stuff like that go unpunished. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2001, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-case-be-made-for-outlawing-false-accusations/71606/4 "2001-07-07T18:22:57Z")
I know that perjury and filing false police reports are already illegal, but to what degree? I mean, especially in a rape case–that’s a serious fucking offense! How much trouble would they get in for such a false claim, a fine? Community service? ---
**Author:** ![Drastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Drastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drastic)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2001, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-case-be-made-for-outlawing-false-accusations/71606/5 "2001-07-07T18:23:56Z")
It could be argued, I think, that the court system really doesn’t need the hypothetical extra caseload. Balancing this are a couple points. First, the illegality of something shouldn’t be based on how common or uncommon it is. If the homicide rate suddenly increased tenfold (due to, I don’t know, the effects of violent media suddenly finishing its incubation period, coupled with gun control having grown too lax, coupled with the general moral decay brought on by sex education and women not wearing body-covering shawls) that wouldn’t be a case for legalizing it. Second, I doubt there really would be a tremendous extra caseload involved. I may be completely naive and wrong, but I don’t think this kind of behavior is all that common, mostly just engaged in by the occasional waste of skin. I also suppose that a law making false accusations punishable by variable sentences to fit the falsely accused crime, could lead to the occasional recursive legal headache–what happens when there’s false accusations of false accusations? It’d be somewhat self-limiting. Like any crime, a conviction would require a jury of peers finding that, beyond a reasonable doubt, the defendant did knowingly accuse the plaintiff with the intent of causing them harm. I don’t think it’d stop the problem, as the more intelligent “people” who do this would simply be a little more tricky in how they do so to better gain that reasonable doubt, but on the other hand from the stories (and my non-statistical impression of them) that do crop up of it, most turn out not to be all that intelligent in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2001, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-case-be-made-for-outlawing-false-accusations/71606/6 "2001-07-07T18:39:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by erislover \* > \*\*I know that perjury and filing false police reports are already illegal, but to what degree? I mean, especially in a rape case–that’s a serious fucking offense! How much trouble would they get in for such a false claim, a fine? Community service? \*\* I work in the system. I’ve seen prosecutions for filing false police report, and perjury/attempt in criminal cases. In the false police report case, the punishment was pretty well linked to how much investigation and so on had gone on - in the one case I recall recently, the police figured out pretty quickly that it wasn’t true, so the ‘damage’ was limited, as was the potential time for the crime. In a case like the pit thread case, I’d think they could be more time involved. The other linked case (where the guy did like 8 years in prison and then the woman recanted) was different. IIRC, the prosecution still believed the woman had been raped, the guy was released on a pardon from the governor (again IIRC). as far as the perjury, the one case that comes to mind, a woman falsely gave an alibi for a drinking buddy who had been charged with another crime. He got probation for his original crime, she went to prison for attempting to cover it up. these are anectdotal, obviously cannot be extrapolated. However, I have yet to see that there’s a national emergency with false police reports being filed in criminal matters, especially in rape cases. Obviously that doesn’t mean that it’s impossible. ---
**Author:** ![RoboDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@RoboDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RoboDude)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2001, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-case-be-made-for-outlawing-false-accusations/71606/7 "2001-07-07T22:28:35Z")
When I read the thread title, my first thought was “How can a case be made for _not_ outlawing false accusation?”. If you deliberately harm someone, you deserve to be punished, right? How could this be any different? ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2001, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-case-be-made-for-outlawing-false-accusations/71606/8 "2001-07-07T23:50:57Z")
The real problem here is proof. The rape example can be very difficult to prove the woman deliberately made a false accusation, particularly when it is shown that the accuser and accused did have sex. It may be determined that reasonable people would have believed the sex was consensual, but perhaps the woman honestly believed (before or after the fact) that it wasn’t. Is it a false accusation, or a mistake. Same thing with a false eyewitness report of a robbery, etc. The witness could just say “I really thought it was the accused. My bad.” and given the well-known problems with eyewitness testimony, a defense attorney could easily establish reasonable doubt against an accusation that the witness deliberately gave false testimony. Given these problems, I’m not surprised that false accusations are rarely prosecuted. Sua ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-case-be-made-for-outlawing-false-accusations/71606/9 "2001-07-08T06:03:20Z")
After initially reading the Pit thread, I thought this was a no brainer. If someone falsely accuses another of rape, they should pay **very** heavily. Then I started thinking about the consequences. Imagine the following hypothetical scenario: Linda and John are having consensual sex. They are discovered by her parents, who thought they raised their daughter in a “no sex until marriage” environment, and would be extremely upset to find that she didn’t follow their rules. To protect herself from their wrath, she selfishly says she was raped, not thinking about what this might do to John. After a few days, she realizes her mistake, but also realizes the consequences for admitting it. Would she do the right thing and come clean, even if it meant she might spend a few years behind bars? What if she’s not so happy with John for another reason? ---
**Author:** ![Father\_Pacelli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Father\_Pacelli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Father_Pacelli)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-case-be-made-for-outlawing-false-accusations/71606/10 "2001-07-08T06:42:06Z")
Wouldn’t this already fall under slander/libel/defamation? Just brainstorming. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-case-be-made-for-outlawing-false-accusations/71606/11 "2001-07-08T06:47:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Father Pacelli \* > \*\*Wouldn’t this already fall under slander/libel/defamation? Just brainstorming. \*\* Quite possibly, but these would put someone in civil court, not criminal court. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-case-be-made-for-outlawing-false-accusations/71606/12 "2001-07-08T07:02:44Z")
We might distinguish between a false accusation at the “filing a false police report” stage and the “perjury under oath during a trial” stage. The first might be a relatively minor matter, and charges might not be pressed if the “witness” comes forward early on, but if it gets to the point of someone testifying under oath or affirmation in order to send someone away for 20 years, it should be a much more grave matter. It occurred to me that I should check to see what the law actually is, and it turns out that in my state this principle has basically already been adopted. [Georgia Code 16-10-70](http://www.ganet.org/cgi-bin/pub/ocode/ocgsearch?number=16-10-70) states: > [@](#): > > (a) A person to whom a lawful oath or affirmation has been administered commits the offense of perjury when, in a judicial proceeding, he knowingly and willfully makes a false statement material to the issue or point in question. > > (b) A person convicted of the offense of perjury shall be punished by a fine of not more than $1,000.00 or by imprisonment for not less than one nor more than ten years, or both. A person convicted of the offense of perjury that was a cause of another’s being imprisoned shall be sentenced to a term not to exceed the sentence provided for the crime for which the other person was convicted. A person convicted of the offense of perjury that was a cause of another’s being punished by death shall be punished by life imprisonment. So I guess I’m happy. We would of course need to distinguish between cases of actual malice and cases of tragically mistaken identity. The offense of perjury would be subject to prosecutorial discretion as to whether or not to prosecute and to trial by jury, which would safeguard against people who are innocently mistaken being imprisoned. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-case-be-made-for-outlawing-false-accusations/71606/13 "2001-07-08T09:29:59Z")
And here’s the Georgia law on filing a false police report ([O.C.G. 16-10-26](http://www.ganet.org/cgi-bin/pub/ocode/ocgsearch?number=16-10-26&Code_Number_Submit=Begin+Search)): > [@](#): > > A person who willfully and knowingly gives or causes a false report of a crime to be given to any law enforcement officer or agency of this state is guilty of a misdemeanor. ---
**Author:** ![Mekhazzio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b38774/32.png) [@Mekhazzio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mekhazzio)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2001, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-case-be-made-for-outlawing-false-accusations/71606/14 "2001-07-09T06:44:44Z")
I think the real problem here is not really that people are making false accusations, but that some topics (really, most topics) tend to inspire a “guilty until proven innocent” approach by the general population…sometimes extending to “guilty EVEN IF proven innocent”. Our society is all to eager to string someone up after the slightest accusation. If not for that, false accusations would not be near as damaging (or credible) File this along with the trial by media scenario. ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2001, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-case-be-made-for-outlawing-false-accusations/71606/15 "2001-07-09T13:29:09Z")
Would this mean that every time a defendant is found innocent, a subsequent trial for false accusation must follow? If someone knowingly lies under oath, that’s already a crime. If they don’t, then is that really “false accusation”? Another point: it is already strongly suspected that only a fraction of actual rapes are reported. Many services are doing their best to encourage those raped to report the crime. The threat of falling foul of a “false accusation” law might cause even fewer genuine cases to report. pan ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2001, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-case-be-made-for-outlawing-false-accusations/71606/16 "2001-07-09T13:37:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kabbes \* > \*\*Would this mean that every time a defendant is found innocent, a subsequent trial for false accusation must follow? \*\* this may be a difference in jurisdictions, but in the US, folks may be found “not guilty” which isn’t considered the same as “innocent”. So, the answer here would be no - a finding of ‘not guilty’ would not necessarily mean the defendant hadn’t committed the crime, and therefore would not necessarily mean that a witness had lied under oath. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2001, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-case-be-made-for-outlawing-false-accusations/71606/17 "2001-07-09T13:41:45Z")
**kabbes** , you bring up what my ideas on a law would do. This effect is somewhat dashed, however, by reading **MEBuckner** ’s post, wherein we find Georgia has just such a law. Interesting. Time to go hunt down some other states. ---
**Author:** ![KeithB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/48db29/32.png) [@KeithB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KeithB)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2001, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-case-be-made-for-outlawing-false-accusations/71606/18 "2001-07-09T22:11:01Z")
I just finished reading an aticle in Sunday’s Los Angeles Times Magazine. Because the City of South Gate, SE of LA, has no local press, the preferrec method of getting elected is to release anonymous flyers making outrageous accusations. A few years ago a man was accused in one of these for molesting some boys at a pool party at his house. The police investigated and it was dropped because he did not even have a pool, amoung other reasons. Last year a new flyer was sent out saying “Will you vote for this man accused of child molesting, even though it was investigated and found false?” How can you win? We need penalties for more general false accusations, not just ones taken to the police. ---
**Author:** ![sdimbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdimbert/32/20204_2.png) [@sdimbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sdimbert)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2001, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-case-be-made-for-outlawing-false-accusations/71606/19 "2001-07-09T23:33:19Z")
This may or may not be helpful, depending upon the spirit of the OP when he said: > [@](#): > > - > > Is there any precident in any crime where false accusations cause automatic criminal prosecution of the false-accuser? >      [sub]-emphasis mine[/sub] - In the Babylonian Talmud, tractate Makot, the first chapter deals entirely with a phenomenon called _Aidim Zommemin_, often poorly translated as “false witnesses.” A better translation would be “scheming witnesses.” The general idea is thus: [ul] [li]Rob is on trial for the murder of Sally.[/li][li]Steve testifies that Rob killed Sally.[/li][li]Another witness then appears (we’ll call her Jenny) and testifies that Steve could not have seen Rob kill Sally because he (Steve) was with her (Jenny) in Toledo on the afternoon in question.[/li][/ul] Got that? In such a case, the Talmud rules that Steve is punished with whatever punishment Rob would have gotten. This ruling is based on Dueteronomy 19:16-20(KJV): > [@](#): > > 16:If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong; > > 17:Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days; > > 18:And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother; > > 19:Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you. > > 20:And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you. The crux is the underlined section in verse 19: “Then shall ye do unto him (Steve), as he had thought to have done unto his brother (Rob)…” In other words, the False Witness is punished (in the most fitting way, in my opinion as well as the Talmud’s opinion) for the false accusation he made. Note that, in Talmudic times, it was very difficult to make a legal case; often eyewitness testimony was the only evidence around. This underscores both how seriously False Testimony was taken and how carefuly anyone suspected of being _Zomen_ (“scheming”) was examined. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2001, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-case-be-made-for-outlawing-false-accusations/71606/20 "2001-07-10T02:55:49Z")
> [@](#): > > **kabbes** , you bring up what my ideas on a law would do. This effect is somewhat dashed, however, by reading **MEBuckner** ’s post, wherein we find Georgia has just such a law. > > Interesting. Time to go hunt down some other states. Well, here are a couple of sections from the [California Penal Code](http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=3349716649+0+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve): > [@](#): > > 1. Perjury is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for two, three or four years. > > … > > 1. Every person who, by willful perjury or subornation of perjury procures the conviction and execution of any innocent person, is punishable by death or life imprisonment without possibility of parole. The penalty shall be determined pursuant to Sections 190.3 and 190.4. So, in California the principle of making the penalty for perjury which results in an innocent person’s conviction proportionate to the sentence which the innocent person received is applied to death penalty cases, but a witness who puts someone away for 20 years to life with false testimony would be sentenced to a maximum of four years. I don’t know if there’s anything to indicate that this difference in Georgia and California law has had a chilling effect in Georgia on either false testimony or on testimony from genuine victims of crimes. I’m not normally one to favorably compare the laws of Georgia with other states, but in this case I think Georgia law is more fundamentally just. > [@](#): > > I just finished reading an aticle in Sunday’s Los Angeles Times Magazine. Because the City of South Gate, SE of LA, has no local press, the preferrec method of getting elected is to release anonymous flyers making outrageous accusations. > > A few years ago a man was accused in one of these for molesting some boys at a pool party at his house. The police investigated and it was dropped because he did not even have a pool, amoung other reasons. > > Last year a new flyer was sent out saying “Will you vote for this man accused of child molesting, even though it was investigated and found false?” How can you win? > > We need penalties for more general false accusations, not just ones taken to the police. I would think a situation like this would surely be covered under existing libel laws. **sdimbert:** Actually, I quoted the passage from Deuteronomy over in the [Pit thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=76970) which inspired this discussion. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-case-be-made-for-outlawing-false-accusations/71606.md?page=2)