# Can a court/judge order someone to be fired from their job? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 3, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-court-judge-order-someone-to-be-fired-from-their-job/776251 "2017-01-03T19:40:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2017, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-court-judge-order-someone-to-be-fired-from-their-job/776251/21 "2017-01-05T16:38:21Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The enjoined party there was the employee, not the new employer. The employer was named as an appellee in the case style but the injunction requested at the trial level was against the employee. > > The portion you quoted also indicates there was no injunction against the employer; it says the appellee was to be enjoined “from violating the non-competition provisions of the employment contract,” which the employer by definition could not violate as it was never a party to it. Sure – but that’s why my hypo included privity of contract between JillCo and UTHE. ---
**Author:** ![Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tired_and_Cranky)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2017, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-court-judge-order-someone-to-be-fired-from-their-job/776251/22 "2017-01-05T20:02:11Z")
OP, I have no real idea whether under your specific fact pattern a court could order a company to fire someone. If you’re curious, I am aware of at least one circumstance where a court can order a company to fire an employee. Essentially, the federal securities laws allow courts to order a broker-dealer to fire certain employees who have done certain bad things. It happened at least once. Under the federal securities laws, the Securities and Exchange Commission can temporarily or permanently bar a person from being an “associated person of a broker or dealer” if the person violated the federal securities laws, committed fraud, was convicted of a felony, or did certain other bad things. See Exchange Act Sec. 15(b)(6)(A), 15 U.S.C. § 78o(b)(6)(a) and Exchange Act Sec. 15(b)(6)(B)(i), 15 USC 78o(6)(B)(i). An “associated person of a broker or dealer” includes employees, officers, directors, and certain other people. See Exchange Act Sec. 3(a)(18), 15 U.S.C. § 78c(a)(18).\* Once person is barred from being an associated person of a broker-dealer, broker-dealers are also prohibited from allowing the barred person to become associated with them. Exchange Act Sec. 15(b)(6)(B)(ii), 15 USC 78o(6)(B)(ii). So, if a broker-dealer hires an employee who is barred from associating with a broker-dealer, the SEC can sue the broker-dealer and seek an injunction to prevent them from continuing to violate the law. Exchange Act Sec. 21(d)(1), 16 USC 78u(d)(1). Such an injunction effectively forces the broker-dealer to fire the barred employee. One court issued such an injunction, which prohibited a broker-dealer, Tuschner & Co., from continuing its association with a barred salesperson. See Zahareas, Tuschner & Co., and Euroamerican Securities v. SEC, 167 F.3d 396 (8th Cir. 1999) (appeal of a temporary injunction), and SEC v. Zahareas, Tuschner & Co., and Euroamerican Securities, 100 F.Supp.2d 1148 (granting a permanent injunction). - This definition generally excludes people who do solely clerical or ministerial work for a broker or dealer but the exclusion for clerical or ministerial work doesn’t apply to the parts of the Exchange Act that prohibits a broker or dealer from associating with a barred person and vice versa. Basically, a broker-dealer can’t hire a barred person even to work in a clerical or ministerial capacity. ---
**Author:** ![Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tired_and_Cranky)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2017, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-court-judge-order-someone-to-be-fired-from-their-job/776251/23 "2017-01-05T20:08:27Z")
I should have also noted that the case I cited to above was reversed on other grounds-basically that the barred person was not an employee. If he had been an employee, the injunction barring his employment would have stood. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2017, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-court-judge-order-someone-to-be-fired-from-their-job/776251/24 "2017-01-05T21:48:53Z")
Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2017, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-court-judge-order-someone-to-be-fired-from-their-job/776251/25 "2017-01-05T23:40:36Z")
Lawyers can correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe _as a practical matter_ judges can “sentence” people to virtually anything. You see all sorts of cases in the media of people being forced by judges to walk around with embarrassing signs like “I am a thief/deadbeat dad/whatever”, or other original “sentences”. That doesn’t mean that the judge technically has the power to order those things, and they’re not written into any law. But - as I understand it - he can order a pretty long prison sentence, and if he gives the guy a choice of that or a couple of days with an embarrassing sign, the guy is going to pick the latter. In that sense a judge can “order” a person to be fired based on his offering that up as a better alternative to another sentence that he does have the technical ability to order. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-court-judge-order-someone-to-be-fired-from-their-job/776251/26 "2017-01-06T03:44:48Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Lawyers can correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe _as a practical matter_ judges can “sentence” people to virtually anything. > > You see all sorts of cases in the media of people being forced by judges to walk around with embarrassing signs like “I am a thief/deadbeat dad/whatever”, or other original “sentences”. That doesn’t mean that the judge technically has the power to order those things, and they’re not written into any law. But - as I understand it - he can order a pretty long prison sentence, and if he gives the guy a choice of that or a couple of days with an embarrassing sign, the guy is going to pick the latter. > > In that sense a judge can “order” a person to be fired based on his offering that up as a better alternative to another sentence that he does have the technical ability to order. The original post specifically mentioned a civil case, where one person is suing another. Judges can only sentence someone to prison in a criminal case, where the State (or U.S.) is charging someone with a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-court-judge-order-someone-to-be-fired-from-their-job/776251/27 "2017-01-06T05:15:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The answer to the simple question is yes: a judge can order that a company terminate an employee. I doubt that can ever be a remedy for the specific example of some giant act of gross negligence. > > But I can easily picture another type of legal action that could result in such an order: Jack works for Up The Hill Enterprises, and signed an agreement that if he resigns, he cannot accept employment for one year with any company in the same city that works in the same industry and compete for the same contracts as UTHE. JillCo is a subcontractor to UTHE on some contracts and competes against them for others in the same industry. JillCo’s subcontracting agreement with UTHE forbids the recruitment or hiring of any UTHE employees. > > Jack resigns and accepts a job as business development director with JillCo. > > UTHE’s lawsuit against Jack and JillCo could easily result in a court ordering that Jack’s employment be terminated. I believe though that non-compete clauses are unenforceable in some areas of the country, correct? (My dad had an issue with one here in PA where they were violating the law when he had to sign one – I can’t remember the exact details) ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-court-judge-order-someone-to-be-fired-from-their-job/776251/28 "2017-01-06T06:12:58Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > The original post specifically mentioned a civil case, where one person is suing another. Judges can only sentence someone to prison in a criminal case, where the State (or U.S.) is charging someone with a crime. My understanding - a judge can only create an order where one is asked for. In a case between Bob and Acme Inc., his former employer, Acme can get an injunction(?) ordering Bob not to work / stop working for Reliable Inc. (or for anyone in the same business). But unless they take Reliable to court, the judge cannot grant Acme an injunction or order that Reliable not hire Bob. And again, on what grounds? Reliable has never signed a contract with Acme saying they would not hire Bob. They are free to hire whomever they want. It’s Bob’s problem to determine if he is allowed to work for them and if he is not, take the appropriate action. I recall some cases I read where Company A did sue Company B alleging it was taking advantage of trade secrets, or proprietary customer lists, or some such that an employee had brought over. But to win that, A would have to prove that it was happening, the information was in fact proprietary, etc. In that case, the injunction would be for B to stop using the information, and/or monetary damages, not “fire Bob”. the catch with non-compete clauses (at least how I’ve read the law in Canada) is that they cannot be “overly broad”. They cannot stop the person from making a living, they can simply forbid him/her from taking and using very specialized information or skills to compete with a former employer. The usual application is for sales-type information, to prevent an ex-employee poaching customers through inside knowledge of prices and services involved - since an important part of sales is knowing what pricing structures will work with what customers; or if someone is involved in, say, a complex computer project - so they’ve learned not only what they were working on, but picked up key information from others about the inner workings of a key corporate project. For example, if you worked for Google tweaking their selection engine algorithm, figuring out the best answer to searches - they could bar you from working for or starting another search engine company doing the same thing for a year, maybe. They could not stop you from working on a fairly different project like say, self-driving cars; but if you went to work for perhaps Travelocity to help tweak searching flights and hotels - well, let the judge decide. So if the non-compete clause means you have to change careers or move hundreds of miles, then usually a judge will void it completely as unconscionable. The usual logic is that the employer has such a lopsided advantage that they owe a duty to be fair. If they won’t let you earn a paycheque anywhere else, then they should be paying you. The example I read of a non-compete which was upheld, was to not open a competing dental practice within 10 miles in the next year -or was it two years? (i.e. you sold me the practice with patients, now don’t immediately open shop down the street and lure them all away) ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-court-judge-order-someone-to-be-fired-from-their-job/776251/29 "2017-01-06T07:13:05Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Can the court/judge order the employer to have the employee fired? To be sure, Company X probably wouldn’t need the court’s prompting to give such an employee the pink slip, but is there such legal authority? So why would they? Why would they force something on the plaintiff that may be inconvenient? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-court-judge-order-someone-to-be-fired-from-their-job/776251/30 "2017-01-06T14:18:25Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I believe though that non-compete clauses are unenforceable in some areas of the country, correct? (My dad had an issue with one here in PA where they were violating the law when he had to sign one – I can’t remember the exact details) No. They’re enforceable everywhere. Courts just generally _won’t_ enforce them unless they are reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-court-judge-order-someone-to-be-fired-from-their-job/776251/31 "2017-01-06T14:42:47Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > The original post specifically mentioned a civil case, where one person is suing another. Judges can only sentence someone to prison in a criminal case, where the State (or U.S.) is charging someone with a crime. That’s a good point and I had overlooked it. Thanks. That said, much of the discussion in this thread has been about non-civil cases, in which the State or US is charging someone. E.g. the discussions of Typhoid Mary, suspension of professional licenses, or broker-dealer cases. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-court-judge-order-someone-to-be-fired-from-their-job/776251/32 "2017-01-06T14:52:57Z")
All of those _are_ civil cases, with the exception of licensure cases, which are typically administrative. Nobody is being charged with a crime; they are being charged with civil infractions. At least in the US context, any litigation that is not criminal in nature is a civil case so long as the forum is an Article III (or state constitution-equivalent) court. Administrative law is a third branch but administrative cases are heard by specialized tribunals. The fact that the state is a party is not determinative. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-court-judge-order-someone-to-be-fired-from-their-job/776251/33 "2017-01-06T14:55:28Z")
OK, but they’re the government suing in civil cases, not Company A versus Company B. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-court-judge-order-someone-to-be-fired-from-their-job/776251/34 "2017-01-06T16:21:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No. They’re enforceable everywhere. Courts just generally _won’t_ enforce them unless they are reasonable. But different states have different statutes covering non-compete agreements, so as a matter of bright-line law (not opinion about ‘reasonableness’), some agreements are legal in one state but not another. Famously, California’s law restricted non-competes far more than Massachusetts’ (in other words, a Massachusetts contract could have more conditions on the employee than a California one). ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-court-judge-order-someone-to-be-fired-from-their-job/776251/35 "2017-01-06T18:45:44Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > OK, but they’re the government suing in civil cases, not Company A versus Company B. And it would seem to me the government even there cannot so much order a company to fire an employee, but rather to say “if you continue to use this disqualified person, your company is subject to fines and/ or loses its license to operate in the regulated environment.” it’s still the company’s decision whether to fire the employee or not. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-court-judge-order-someone-to-be-fired-from-their-job/776251/36 "2017-01-06T19:57:06Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > And it would seem to me the government even there cannot so much order a company to fire an employee, but rather to say “if you continue to use this disqualified person, your company is subject to fines and/ or loses its license to operate in the regulated environment.” it’s still the company’s decision whether to fire the employee or not. Right. Not that a company is likely to just ignore the regulator, but for instance it’s possible all the company has to do is properly train and certify the employee and they can get back into the restricted job. Or it’s also possible the company will transfer the employee out of the restricted job and into another one (company chef, or guy who wears the animal mascot costume at corporate events); it’s almost certainly not a regulator’s job to forbid that (Well, I guess assuming the suit isn’t about health code violations…) But for things like negotiating this kind of outcome, regulatory agencies taking civil (and administrative) actions are usually more similar to criminal proceedings than to two-private-party civil suits – there’s the same kind of asymmetric plea-bargaining going on (except there’s even less reason for the ‘defendant’ to go to trial), and most likely all a judge is going to do is to OK a deal worked out by the regulator and company. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-court-judge-order-someone-to-be-fired-from-their-job/776251.md?page=1)