# Can a Defendant (or his Attorney) Ask the Jury to Nullify? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 27, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-defendant-or-his-attorney-ask-the-jury-to-nullify/629597 "2012-07-27T19:24:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-defendant-or-his-attorney-ask-the-jury-to-nullify/629597/61 "2012-09-14T16:48:27Z")
I’m pretty sure you can’t get in any kind of trouble for _mentioning_ it. ETA: even that vocal proponent would probably wait until after the fact, else the judge might declare a mistrial and empanel a replacement jury. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-defendant-or-his-attorney-ask-the-jury-to-nullify/629597/62 "2012-09-14T17:43:56Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > So, I’m juror number seven. During deliberations I mention nullification as an interesting philosophical topic. We have also discussed the weather and local sports teams. Juror number nine mentions our nullification discussion to his honor. > > Am I in trouble? If so, why? Some members of the legal profession dislike the idea that jurors might ignore the letter of the law. Judges have a notorious amount of latitude in dealing with cases of juror misbehaviour. If the judge found that a juror was discussing not following intructions, for example, he might disqualify him. Worst case, that results in s mistrial and a second trial… from the judge’s perspective, beat having been showed up by a mere juror. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-defendant-or-his-attorney-ask-the-jury-to-nullify/629597/63 "2012-09-14T18:08:00Z")
> [@John\_Bredin](#): > > "In fact, this real-world expectation is the law in almost every other jurisdiction in the world; it just so happens that in the United States, our courts have interpreted the fifth amendment to proscribe such an expectation by holding that a defendant cannot be punished for exercising his constitutional right of silence, even at trial. But, if - as the supporters of jury nullification contend - a jury can reject the trial court’s instructions of law, what can be wrong with a juror’s thinking the following: ‘Not holding a defendant’s failure to testify against him might have worked just fine 200 years ago when a bunch of rich, white guys wrote that protection into the Constitution to deal with the kinds of crimes and trials that occurred then, but clearly this archaic bit of colonial fluff has no legitimacy in the modern world of urban violence and street gang murders. It is a concept that has outlived its usefulness, and if it weren’t for a bunch of bleeding-heart ACLU-types, we would have gotten rid of it a long time ago so that we could really get tough on vicious criminals.’ ” People v. Smith, 296 Ill. App. 3d 435, 442-43 (1998). Those of us who support jury nullification would say that yes, that is a concern, but its one we should live with. We’re not looking for a perfect system, just a better system > [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Isn’t it so curious that these sensitive jurors, who cannot bear to apply a law with which they disagree, are not so moved by their consciences to alert the court to this fact at voir dire or impanelment? Some of us want to change bad aspects of the law, and jury nullification gives the common man the most power to do so. When you vote, you’re competing against the vote of thousands or millions of other people. On a jury, you’re 1 of 12 voices that can decide the fate of a man and the law of the land in a couple hours of deliberation. I don’t see why a person would voluntarily remove themselves from that power ---
**Author:** ![mmmbeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecb155/32.png) [@mmmbeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmbeer)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-defendant-or-his-attorney-ask-the-jury-to-nullify/629597/64 "2012-09-14T18:22:28Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Because _those specific people_ disagreed with the law. You can’t seriously be arguing that 12 people (or as few as six, in some jurisdictions) is a statistically significant sample. > > I grok your argument about nullification being the last line of defense, but this stuff about the jury representing “the community” is rubbish. I was answering “If the state makes something a crime, the community, by definition, does think people should go to jail for it.” To say it is false logic…because the government passes a law doesn’t mean that the community believes people should go to jail for it. If that were true, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. There would be no nullification. We would just be convicting regardless of what the law was. Gratz for the Grok. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-defendant-or-his-attorney-ask-the-jury-to-nullify/629597/65 "2012-09-14T18:22:46Z")
Jury nullification also gives a bad person the right to disregard good law-there is absolutely nothing in the concept that automatically applies white hats to one side of the equation and black hats to the other. I’ve seen some of the people that manage to get picked for jury duty, and the possibility of a well-thought out law that has stood the test of trial and time being nullified by an ignorant yahoo with no more effort than “Nuh-_Uh_” scares me just a bit. ---
**Author:** ![mmmbeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecb155/32.png) [@mmmbeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmbeer)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-defendant-or-his-attorney-ask-the-jury-to-nullify/629597/66 "2012-09-14T18:24:56Z")
Perhaps for clarity, nullification doesn’t involve any declarations or statements of intent. You just vote not guilty. Done. You have nullified the effort to prosecute the defendant. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-defendant-or-his-attorney-ask-the-jury-to-nullify/629597/67 "2012-09-14T18:30:17Z")
> [@mmmbeer](#): > > Perhaps for clarity, nullification doesn’t involve any declarations or statements of intent. You just vote not guilty. Done. You have nullified the effort to prosecute the defendant. It involves the deliberant attempt to ignore the law(and the judges legally binding instructions) in favor of a juror’s very limited knowledge base and personal prejudices. It is nothing more than a call for ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-defendant-or-his-attorney-ask-the-jury-to-nullify/629597/68 "2012-09-14T18:33:27Z")
Very few people are going to let someone go free for a serious crime, simply on a whim. However, it is not unusual to find a decent number of people who disagree with some more contentious laws. Dr. Henry Morgentaler, for example - 3 times in Quebec he was acquitted by juries of illegal abortions. There was no question what he did, the juries simply did not believe it was a crime. When the appeal court “substituted” a guilty verdict rather than re-try him, the appeals eventually resulted in de facto changes to how the system treated both jury decisions and abortion law. Just because the law said that an abortion was illegal in the circumstances - does not mean the majority of society or a random group of 12 people believe that was the correct verdict. ---
**Author:** ![mmmbeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecb155/32.png) [@mmmbeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmbeer)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-defendant-or-his-attorney-ask-the-jury-to-nullify/629597/69 "2012-09-14T18:37:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Jury nullification also gives a bad person the right to disregard good law-there is absolutely nothing in the concept that automatically applies white hats to one side of the equation and black hats to the other. I’ve seen some of the people that manage to get picked for jury duty, and the possibility of a well-thought out law that has stood the test of trial and time being nullified by an ignorant yahoo with no more effort than “Nuh-_Uh_” scares me just a bit. Is this happening? I mean to the extent that you should be concerned? I am much more afraid of a government that is completely out of control, than some ignorant yahoo. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-defendant-or-his-attorney-ask-the-jury-to-nullify/629597/70 "2012-09-14T18:39:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It involves the deliberant attempt to ignore the law(and the judges legally binding instructions) in favor of a juror’s very limited knowledge base and personal prejudices. It is nothing more than a call for ignorance. Yes, it is the right of citizens on juries to ignore laws that they disagree with and vote “not guilty”. Deliberately. With power comes responsibility, however. Think before you act. Note that the nullification acquitals in the US for whites who killed blacks were contentious too as “jury nullification”, since the jury selection process was flawed too. When you exclude some races from the jury pool, you are already allowing the system to tilt. If you allow a court to pick only those who will support not guilty, should you be surprised at the verdict? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-defendant-or-his-attorney-ask-the-jury-to-nullify/629597/71 "2012-09-14T18:44:33Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Some of us want to change bad aspects of the law, and jury nullification gives the common man the most power to do so. When you vote, you’re competing against the vote of thousands or millions of other people. On a jury, you’re 1 of 12 voices that can decide the fate of a man and the law of the land in a couple hours of deliberation. I don’t see why a person would voluntarily remove themselves from that power That’s exactly the problem with nullification: it doesn’t change the law. In fact, it frustrates efforts to do so because a nullified conviction cannot go up on appeal. ---
**Author:** ![mmmbeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecb155/32.png) [@mmmbeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmbeer)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-defendant-or-his-attorney-ask-the-jury-to-nullify/629597/72 "2012-09-14T18:44:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It involves the deliberant attempt to ignore the law(and the judges legally binding instructions) in favor of a juror’s very limited knowledge base and personal prejudices. It is nothing more than a call for ignorance. Because these judges are much more in touch with our how our justice system should work than these men? John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the U. S. Supreme Court stated in 1789:"The jury has the right to determine both the law and the facts. " U. S. Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes said in 1902: “The jury has the power to bring a verdict in the teeth of both law and fact.” Harlan F. Stone, the 12th Chief Justice of the U. S. Supreme Court, stated in 1941: “The law itself is on trial quite as much as the cause which is to be decided.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-defendant-or-his-attorney-ask-the-jury-to-nullify/629597/73 "2012-09-14T18:53:35Z")
> [@mmmbeer](#): > > Is this happening? I mean to the extent that you should be concerned? > I am much more afraid of a government that is completely out of control, than some ignorant yahoo. I might ask the same of you-is there evidence that our system, which I think has stood the test of time and trial over the last couple of hundred years, is rapidly breaking down and is in need of untrained jurors to weigh the worth of established law? Jury Nullification is equivalent to giving broad-point Magic Markers to complete strangers and telling them it’s their job go through the public library and “fix” whatever they think is wrong with the contents. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-defendant-or-his-attorney-ask-the-jury-to-nullify/629597/74 "2012-09-14T19:07:45Z")
Jury nullification is the citizenry’s bulwark against bad law. Would you convict a Jew for not wearing a yellow Star of David? Paging **AK84** , but I believe that a nullification in the High Court does set a precedent and in effect creates new law. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-defendant-or-his-attorney-ask-the-jury-to-nullify/629597/75 "2012-09-14T19:17:04Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Jury nullification is the citizenry’s bulwark against bad law. No it isn’t. As described, it is an individual’s bulwark against _any_ law she/he disagrees with, good or bad. It is an abomination without legal checks or balances because, as described, any checks or balances could also be nullified. Show me where “bad law” alone can be effected by jury nullification. ---
**Author:** ![mmmbeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecb155/32.png) [@mmmbeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmbeer)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-defendant-or-his-attorney-ask-the-jury-to-nullify/629597/76 "2012-09-14T19:17:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I might ask the same of you-is there evidence that our system, which I think has stood the test of time and trial over the last couple of hundred years, is rapidly breaking down and is in need of untrained jurors to weigh the worth of established law? Jury Nullification is equivalent to giving broad-point Magic Markers to complete strangers and telling them it’s their job go through the public library and “fix” whatever they think is wrong with the contents. First, to vote one’s conscience is a long standing right. The fact that judges have tried to usurp that right by not informing jurors of it OR outright lying to them to take it away OR actually threaten them if they should exercise it, I think is evidence enough. See my above post about who in the justice system agrees with me. Can you not see far enough ahead to understand that it isn’t ONLY long established law that would be questioned? There is no telling what laws may be passed and I for one would like the people to understand that just because some asshole is telling them “you are to consider only the facts in the matter, the law is my domain”, that it isn’t true. ---
**Author:** ![mmmbeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecb155/32.png) [@mmmbeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmbeer)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-defendant-or-his-attorney-ask-the-jury-to-nullify/629597/77 "2012-09-14T19:21:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No it isn’t. As described, it is an individual’s bulwark against _any_ law she/he disagrees with, good or bad. It is an abomination without legal checks or balances because, as described, any checks or balances could also be nullified. Show me where “bad law” alone can be effected by jury nullification. You are correct sir, up to the abomination part, which is opinion. But what you seem to be afraid of is that random juror number 4 will nullify cases where bad people obviously did it and should go to jail. Other than OJ, I’m not recalling all these cases where this has happened. On the other hand, our prisons are full of people who haven’t hurt anyone at all and (IMHO) shouldn’t be there. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-defendant-or-his-attorney-ask-the-jury-to-nullify/629597/78 "2012-09-14T19:30:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Has any jury after the fact declared “jury nullification” as the reason for aquittal? This isn’t after the fact, but during the jury selection phase and the example that came to mind first: > **[Jury Nullification In Action: Montana Jury Pool Refuses To Convict For...](https://outsidethebeltway.com/jury-nullification-in-action-montana-jury-pool-refuses-to-convict-for-marijuana-possession/)** > > A case in Montana brings to the forefront a power most prospective jurors aren't aware they have. ---
**Author:** ![mmmbeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecb155/32.png) [@mmmbeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmbeer)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-defendant-or-his-attorney-ask-the-jury-to-nullify/629597/79 "2012-09-14T19:31:09Z")
Originally Posted by Czarcasm Jury nullification also gives a bad person the right to disregard good law-there is absolutely nothing in the concept that automatically applies white hats to one side of the equation and black hats to the other. I’ve seen some of the people that manage to get picked for jury duty, and the possibility of a well-thought out law that has stood the test of trial and time being nullified by an ignorant yahoo with no more effort than “Nuh-Uh” scares me just a bit. > [@mmmbeer](#): > > Is this happening? I mean to the extent that you should be concerned? > I am much more afraid of a government that is completely out of control, than some ignorant yahoo. You didn’t answer. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-defendant-or-his-attorney-ask-the-jury-to-nullify/629597/80 "2012-09-14T19:36:13Z")
> [@mmmbeer](#): > > You didn’t answer. That’s because _I_ already asked for recent cites concerning jury nullification earlier in this thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-defendant-or-his-attorney-ask-the-jury-to-nullify/629597.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-defendant-or-his-attorney-ask-the-jury-to-nullify/629597.md?page=5)