# Can a good person fight for an evil cause? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2011, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-good-person-fight-for-an-evil-cause/574594 "2011-03-13T23:05:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-good-person-fight-for-an-evil-cause/574594/41 "2011-03-14T22:02:35Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > You aren’t going to convince me that things like that are ever OK, for the greater good or not. Certainly not. But you wouldn’t rubber-stamp the Provos Evil, now would you? Or the Brits. People can do bad things, people can do good things. > [@](#): > > On sidenote I recall an interesting article I read once that we as a society are too focused on the ‘big evils’ and as such let the ‘petty evils’ slide, That’s exactly what is dangerous about this whole Good vs Evil view of the world. The mindset that _we_ are the Good Guys (obviously), and therefore can’t do any evil. It’s what leads people to defend wars of agression and even torture. “We are doing it, so it can’t be that bad.” ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-good-person-fight-for-an-evil-cause/574594/42 "2011-03-14T22:19:48Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Certainly not. But you wouldn’t rubber-stamp the Provos Evil, now would you? > Or the Brits. > > People can do bad things, people can do good things. I’d certainly stamp some of the actions they took as evil, at what point do the methods used to achieve it outway the legitimacy of the cause? > [@Latro](#): > > That’s exactly what is dangerous about this whole Good vs Evil view of the world. > The mindset that _we_ are the Good Guys (obviously), and therefore can’t do any evil. It’s what leads people to defend wars of agression and even torture. > “We are doing it, so it can’t be that bad.” But thats why I asked the question, because my mind isn’t made up on the subject. At what point does a basically decent person slip over to The Dark Side in a situation like North Korea for example, by tacitally supporting it because they don’t actively oppose it? By actively working their way into the ranks and supporting it even though they do their best to ameliorate the worst impacts of certain policies while still carrying them out? Going back to the Nazi’s I vaguely recalling reading a book some time ago in which a character, who I believe was based on a real person, joined the SS with the purpose of exposing its secrets, he had to carry out many horrific acts to preserve his cover but also did his best to record and disseminate information on what the organisation was doing. Where does the moral compass fall for him? Difficult one that. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-good-person-fight-for-an-evil-cause/574594/43 "2011-03-15T03:19:26Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > A good person can’t fight for a evil cause by default. God is the only one who is good so a good person would always be God acting through that person. Praise Allah, for once we smite the infidels some of us may join you in Firdaus. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-good-person-fight-for-an-evil-cause/574594/44 "2011-03-15T03:21:28Z")
Why yes Most of the CSA’s politicians, generals, and soldiers were not evil people but unintentionally supporting an evil cause. Meanwhile Germany had men of great morals and brilliant strategy like Rommel, von Manstein, and Guderian in World War II. To give an example, much of the Prussian “warrior” class fought for Nazi Germany because they were German patriots who wished to reverse Versailles and anticommunists not because they were anti-Semites and wanted to exterminate “world Jewry”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-good-person-fight-for-an-evil-cause/574594/45 "2011-03-15T06:17:28Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Is there such no such thing as a “good” Axis member, only a less-evil Axis member (like Japan)? Yes (to the broader question). Not that Japan was a less-evil Axis member. Nanking? Bataan? These are not less-evil acts. Maybe the Finns were a better less-evil example, although not Axis _sensu strictu_. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-good-person-fight-for-an-evil-cause/574594/46 "2011-03-15T14:48:24Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Why yes > > Most of the CSA’s politicians, generals, and soldiers were not evil people but unintentionally supporting an evil cause. How were they doing so unintentionally? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-good-person-fight-for-an-evil-cause/574594/47 "2011-03-15T15:28:21Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > How were they doing so unintentionally? Well, at that time they hadn’t been _officialy_ declared Evil. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-good-person-fight-for-an-evil-cause/574594/48 "2011-03-15T16:16:18Z")
I would have a hard time saying that a German aviator in Dresden fighting to protect his home from Allied bombings was evil, but then again I can’t fault the English pilots doing the bombing either. Generally my view is that a person can’t be considered evil unless they realize that their actions are evil/selfish and do them anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-good-person-fight-for-an-evil-cause/574594/49 "2011-03-15T17:45:44Z")
One of the best comments I ever read on this topic came from, of all places, a Dungeons & Dragons supplemental rulebook, _Book of Exalted Deeds_: “Whether or not good ends can justify evil means, they certainly cannot make evil means any less evil.” ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-good-person-fight-for-an-evil-cause/574594/50 "2011-03-15T17:53:42Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > Which Nazism? The early party that was concerned with law, order, and getting the damn trains running on time or the later, crazy Jew exterminating one? The party was a crazy Jew exterminating one from the beginning. Eliminating the Jews was pretty much the centerpiece of Hitler’s political thought. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-good-person-fight-for-an-evil-cause/574594/51 "2011-03-15T18:09:03Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > It was an extremely condensed account of World War II. I suppose I meant (if I can self-analyze my post) the Allies were on the right side of history and the Axis were on the wrong side of history. What did you think I meant? But what does it mean to be on the right or wrong side of history? If the Axis had won, would they have been on the right side of history? Does might make right? Britain and the United States allied themselves with Stalin, who was at least as much of a monster as Hitler. Are they still on the right side of history, or were they just the winners in a life or death struggle? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-good-person-fight-for-an-evil-cause/574594/52 "2011-03-15T18:13:06Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > But what does it mean to be on the right or wrong side of history? If the Axis had won, would they have been on the right side of history? Does might make right? Britain and the United States allied themselves with Stalin, who was at least as much of a monster as Hitler. Are they still on the right side of history, or were they just the winners in a life or death struggle? The US and Britain in a life or death struggle???!!! Hardly The Soviet Union certainly was. Hitler would have liked nothing better than a peace with Britain. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-good-person-fight-for-an-evil-cause/574594/53 "2011-03-15T18:29:49Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I would have a hard time saying that a German aviator in Dresden fighting to protect his home from Allied bombings was evil, but then again I can’t fault the English pilots doing the bombing either. Generally my view is that a person can’t be considered evil unless they realize that their actions are evil/selfish and do them anyway. Well, people will twist their minds into all kinds of strange shapes when they want to avoid the plain and simple fact that what they are doing is morally. It’s easy to rationalize slavery when you’re making a fortune from it. It easy to tell yourself that a government program is badly needed when it is clearly counter productive and harmful if that program provides you with a nice, fact paycheck. And it’s pretty easy to tell yourself that you’re striving for the greater good when what you’re really after is power. If you’re saying that people have to be consciously aware that they’re doing evil before they can be pronounced evil, an awful lot of evil people are going to get off the hook very easily. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-good-person-fight-for-an-evil-cause/574594/54 "2011-03-15T18:37:31Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > The US and Britain in a life or death struggle???!!! > Hardly > The Soviet Union certainly was. > Hitler would have liked nothing better than a peace with Britain. Whatever. Roosevelt and Churchill saw Hitler as an evil that had to be stopped at any price, and at least at the beginning of the war there was a sense of desperation; an awful lot of people had fallen for Nazi propaganda which protrayed the Nazis as invincible in battle and powerful almost beyond belief. In any case, your objection doesn’t invalidate the point of my post. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-good-person-fight-for-an-evil-cause/574594/55 "2011-03-15T22:30:15Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > But what does it mean to be on the right or wrong side of history? If the Axis had won, would they have been on the right side of history? Does might make right? Britain and the United States allied themselves with Stalin, who was at least as much of a monster as Hitler. Are they still on the right side of history, or were they just the winners in a life or death struggle? Whether or not the Axis had won the war, they would still have been on the wrong side of history. What does it mean to be on the right or wrong side of history? Obama is on the right side of history. Bush was on the wrong side of history. Yes, Churchill and the Roosevelt allied themselves with Stalin and yes, Stalin was just as much a monster as Hitler, but this resulted in the end of the Cold War. Eisenhower was on the right side of history and so was Clinton. Not a life or death struggle, but a long twilight struggle. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-good-person-fight-for-an-evil-cause/574594/56 "2011-03-16T03:46:24Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > How were they doing so unintentionally? Some men like Lee himself hated slavery and even secession and only fought for the Rebs because he loved his State too much. > [@Kozmik](#): > > Whether or not the Axis had won the war, they would still have been on the wrong side of history. What does it mean to be on the right or wrong side of history? Obama is on the right side of history. Bush was on the wrong side of history. Yes, Churchill and the Roosevelt allied themselves with Stalin and yes, Stalin was just as much a monster as Hitler, but this resulted in the end of the Cold War. Eisenhower was on the right side of history and so was Clinton. > > Not a life or death struggle, but a long twilight struggle. How was Bush on the wrong side unless you’re saying Saddam Hussein was on the right side? Perhaps mistaken but not on the wrong side. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-good-person-fight-for-an-evil-cause/574594/57 "2011-03-16T12:16:43Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Some men like Lee himself hated slavery and even secession and only fought for the Rebs because he loved his State too much. Well that’s not most of the politicians, generals etc. But anyway, how is that unintentional? Would it not have been likely that Lee knew that fighting for his state was fighting for the cause of slavery? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-good-person-fight-for-an-evil-cause/574594/58 "2011-03-16T13:53:54Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Whether or not the Axis had won the war, they would still have been on the wrong side of history. What does it mean to be on the right or wrong side of history? Obama is on the right side of history. Bush was on the wrong side of history. Yes, Churchill and the Roosevelt allied themselves with Stalin and yes, Stalin was just as much a monster as Hitler, but this resulted in the end of the Cold War. Eisenhower was on the right side of history and so was Clinton. > > Not a life or death struggle, but a long twilight struggle. As I thought, “on the right side of history” is just an empty. noble sounding phrase. You think you know where history is going or ought to go. You don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-good-person-fight-for-an-evil-cause/574594/59 "2011-03-16T16:55:47Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > As I thought, “on the right side of history” is just an empty. noble sounding phrase. You think you know where history is going or ought to go. You don’t. That right, I don’t. Which is one reason why I read _[The New York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/images/2011/03/16/nytfrontpage/scannat.jpg)_. Every day. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-good-person-fight-for-an-evil-cause/574594/60 "2011-03-17T23:23:40Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Well that’s not most of the politicians, generals etc. But anyway, how is that unintentional? Would it not have been likely that Lee knew that fighting for his state was fighting for the cause of slavery? The war was not 100% about slavery, thus Lee was fighting for reasons other than slavery. And I don’t think he believed either way slavery would have been abolished (considering the Emancipation Proclamation did not come until well into 1862) and most Union soldiers were not fighting to “free the slaves” but to preserve the Union and most Southerners fought largely because they perceived they were being invaded-Virginia only seceded because Lincoln called for troops against the Deep South states. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-good-person-fight-for-an-evil-cause/574594.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-good-person-fight-for-an-evil-cause/574594.md?page=4)