# Can a human cleanly throw a baseball through a pizza box **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 29, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-human-cleanly-throw-a-baseball-through-a-pizza-box/639264 "2012-10-29T22:02:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-human-cleanly-throw-a-baseball-through-a-pizza-box/639264/261 "2012-11-06T15:25:42Z")
> [@sich\_hinaufwinden](#): > > For anyone who’s interested, here’s a projectile simulator that has properties for a baseball and some other objects built in and it let’s you toggle air resistance off/on. > [http://phet.colorado.edu/sims/projectile-motion/projectile-motion\_en.htm](http://phet.colorado.edu/sims/projectile-motion/projectile-motion_en.htm) Using that simulator and assuming the back of the bleachers are 197 feet (60 meters) away and 16 feet high (4.88 meters): A throw of 80 mph (36 meters per sec.) at 40 degrees would clear a 38’ barrier at 200 ft.. It’s either hitting trees or bouncing into the street. A throw of 71 mph (32 m/s) is going to hit ground right around the 200 foot mark. It’s won’t come close to clearing the bleachers. The above numbers are just approximations and don’t account for Cain’s height (over 6’) and release point. Conclusion: Another bit of evidence for fakery. Cain could certainly control his velocity to keep the ball in the park, but if he lost concentration while tracking a flying target a car could get hit. ---
**Author:** ![Sinisterniik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/51bf81/32.png) [@Sinisterniik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinisterniik)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-human-cleanly-throw-a-baseball-through-a-pizza-box/639264/262 "2012-11-06T19:13:29Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > We can make a decent guess. Besides which, if the Babe Ruth footage is irrelevant, then the Barry Bonds footage is even more so. The difference being that the Barry Bonds footage was definitely filmed with a handheld camera. We therefor know that the microphone and camera are in the same spot. Although, I suppose placement of the mic on the actual camera could create or obscure a delay. I doubt it would make a difference to the casual observer. And yes, I think the whole thing is highly irrelevant to the OP’s question. > [@](#): > > I disagree (the video speaks for itself), but again my question: > > On the test video I posted, do you agree that it’s possible to discern where the horizontal bar is to within +/- 1 tick when the sound comes? Facts speak for themselves. If video spoke for itself then this thread wouldn’t exist. I pulled the audio from the videos in this thread (not the Cain video, but I can do that if someone asks me really nicely). Some videos are 360p and others are 720p HD. I chose to keep them all in their highest quality, which could create some discrepancy. Key: V = time of visual event A = time of audio event Ezra (720p HD): V - 7.38 sec A - 7.64 sec (+0.26 sec) Bonds (360p): V - 2:26.28 sec A - 2:26.45 sec (+0.17 sec) Ruth (360p): V - 32.49 sec A - 32.97 sec (+0.48 sec) BBC Test (720p HD) (note: I’m using the 2nd “click”): V - 0:01.40 sec A - 0:01.34 sec (-0.06 sec) I’ll let you all draw your own conclusions from this data. To be clear, the audio event denotes the beginning of the sound wave, not the “crack”. The time between the start of the sound wave and the treble-y “crack” varies greatly depending on the video (and presumably the composition of the bat as well). ---
**Author:** ![Sinisterniik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/51bf81/32.png) [@Sinisterniik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinisterniik)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-human-cleanly-throw-a-baseball-through-a-pizza-box/639264/263 "2012-11-06T19:19:29Z")
One more thing about my previous post: Since my audio software is more precise than my visual software (vanilla Quicktime), there’s a +/- of 0.02 seconds for most of the visual events. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-human-cleanly-throw-a-baseball-through-a-pizza-box/639264/264 "2012-11-06T19:25:19Z")
> [@Sinisterniik](#): > > I’ll let you all draw your own conclusions from this data. So I guess you are conceding that in the test video, it’s possible to discern [just by eyeballing it] where the horizontal bar is to within +/- 1 tick when the sound comes? ---
**Author:** ![Sinisterniik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/51bf81/32.png) [@Sinisterniik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinisterniik)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-human-cleanly-throw-a-baseball-through-a-pizza-box/639264/265 "2012-11-06T19:30:16Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > So I guess you are conceding that in the test video, it’s possible to discern [just by eyeballing it] where the horizontal bar is to within +/- 1 tick when the sound comes? Of course. I never said you couldn’t and I don’t know what point you’re trying to make. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-human-cleanly-throw-a-baseball-through-a-pizza-box/639264/266 "2012-11-06T19:52:33Z")
> [@Sinisterniik](#): > > Of course. I never said you couldn’t and I don’t know what point you’re trying to make. One of the issues being discussed is whether it’s a human can discern a 40 ms lag. Clearly it’s doable. One of the other posters essentially insisted that it is not. ---
**Author:** ![Sinisterniik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/51bf81/32.png) [@Sinisterniik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinisterniik)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-human-cleanly-throw-a-baseball-through-a-pizza-box/639264/267 "2012-11-06T20:05:57Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > One of the issues being discussed is whether it’s a human can discern a 40 ms lag. Clearly it’s doable. One of the other posters essentially insisted that it is not. In the test video, the click is designed to be exactly at the point of the horizontal bar. There is no lag. I was able to discern a very small lag on the Ezra video (just not “extreme” lag as you suggest), so I agree that a lag of less than 40 ms can be detected. I’m also a trained musician though, so that might factor into it. I am also much more sensitive to changes in pitch than the average human being, which is neither here nor there. ---
**Author:** ![Sinisterniik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/51bf81/32.png) [@Sinisterniik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinisterniik)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-human-cleanly-throw-a-baseball-through-a-pizza-box/639264/268 "2012-11-06T20:40:24Z")
Actually, I need to revise my last post. In the BBC test video, the audible “click” (not the beginning of the sound wave, mind you) occurs at 1.351 seconds. The decay ends at 1.444 seconds. An average those two will give you 1.3975, close enough to my visual cue of 1.40 to be within the margin of error. I’d love someone with the expertise to comment on this, but it suggests that we hear some average of the sound wave, not the just the start of it or just the loud “crack”. This just became terribly interesting to me. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-human-cleanly-throw-a-baseball-through-a-pizza-box/639264/269 "2012-11-06T21:04:16Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > One of the issues being discussed is whether it’s a human can discern a 40 ms lag. Clearly it’s doable. One of the other posters essentially insisted that it is not. That was me. Someone else posted a scientific article saying anything below 80ms is unlikely to be detected too. You’re seeing extreme lag at what we assume to be 40ms that no one else sees and that science says you shouldn’t see. However you’re right, the Bonds video I posted is completely irrelevant. It became irrelevant when I found audio lag in the Cain video on slow motion. I don’t know what the issue is or why this tangent is still going. Is absence of lag at this distance going to prove something? Doesn’t the presence of lag in slow motion indicate that our there and you just can’t see it at this distance? If you notice sound lag at this distance, it would be impossible to sit in the middle of a movie theater and watch a movie. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-human-cleanly-throw-a-baseball-through-a-pizza-box/639264/270 "2012-11-06T21:53:23Z")
> [@Sinisterniik](#): > > In the test video, the click is designed to be exactly at the point of the horizontal bar. There is no lag. I assume you mean “midpoint” Anyway, the fact that you know the click comes at the mid-point and not one tick off shows that you are able to discern a 50 ms delay without any problem. > [@](#): > > I was able to discern a very small lag on the Ezra video (just not “extreme” lag as you suggest), I believe I said it was extremely noticeable. Anyway, the other poster’s argument was, in essence, that if the original video were real, there would be no perceptible lag between the ball hitting the thrown object and the sound. So that therefore if there is no perceptible lag, it does not undermine the genuineness of the video. This argument would seem to be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-human-cleanly-throw-a-baseball-through-a-pizza-box/639264/271 "2012-11-06T21:58:02Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > That was me. Someone else posted a scientific article saying anything below 80ms is unlikely to be detected too. There is a difference between “unlikely to be detected” and “can’t be detected even if you are looking for it.” If you start saying “who are you” instead of “how are you,” most people won’t notice. But they will if their attention is drawn to it. > [@](#): > > You’re seeing extreme lag at what we assume to be 40ms that no one else sees Please quote me where I did so. TIA. > [@](#): > > Is absence of lag at this distance going to prove something? Yes, see my earlier posts. By the way, are you now conceding that a 40ms lag is perceptible? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-human-cleanly-throw-a-baseball-through-a-pizza-box/639264/272 "2012-11-06T22:04:17Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I assume you mean “midpoint” > > Anyway, the fact that you know the click comes at the mid-point and not one tick off shows that you are able to discern a 50 ms delay without any problem. No, another possibility is that he knows it comes at the mid-point because he knows it is designed to come at the mid-point. Much more informative would be an identical video, but with the sound coming 40 ms early or late. Perhaps then he’d still be saying the sound comes at the midpoint. Who knows? BTW no one around here thinks that “extreme lag,” in this context, as a paraphrase of your words, means anything other than “extremely noticeable lag.” You played this trick on me in another thread where you pretended you were being misquoted and mischaracterized, when in fact you were being either accurately paraphrased or honestly misunderstood depending on the case. You used this as a pretext to stomp off from the conversation in a huff. It brought an unnecessary and abrupt end to what had, til then, been an interesting conversation. Seriously do you ever get anywhere with this? Have you or any of your interlocutors _ever_ learned anything from such conversations once you began unleashing such nonsense upon them? ---
**Author:** ![Sinisterniik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/51bf81/32.png) [@Sinisterniik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinisterniik)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-human-cleanly-throw-a-baseball-through-a-pizza-box/639264/273 "2012-11-06T22:35:33Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I assume you mean “midpoint” I do/did. > [@](#): > > Anyway, the fact that you know the click comes at the mid-point and not one tick off shows that you are able to discern a 50 ms delay without any problem. I don’t understand your reasoning here. There is no delay. > [@Frylock](#): > > No, another possibility is that he knows it comes at the mid-point because he knows it is designed to come at the mid-point. This is true, but I highly doubt it. Once again, I’m a trained musician. Part of those exercises included practicing to sync up audio and visual signals from a metronome -which is basically what that video is. I’m very confident in my skills, and I’d imagine it would take an optical illusion to fool me when it comes to rhythm. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-human-cleanly-throw-a-baseball-through-a-pizza-box/639264/274 "2012-11-06T22:43:10Z")
> [@Sinisterniik](#): > > I don’t understand your reasoning here. There is no delay. Well, if the horizontal bar were one tick to the right when the sound comes, you would notice it. Which is exactly what would happen if there were a 50ms delay. Ergo, you would notice a 50ms delay. Which you apparently already agree with. ---
**Author:** ![Sinisterniik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/51bf81/32.png) [@Sinisterniik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinisterniik)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-human-cleanly-throw-a-baseball-through-a-pizza-box/639264/275 "2012-11-06T23:19:47Z")
OK, I see what you’re saying now. The video doesn’t _prove_ it since that lag doesn’t exist, but I totally agree that it would noticeable if it were there. Each tick on that video is about 41.67 ms though, not 50 like you would think it should be. It’s calibrated differently than other Youtube videos. ---
**Author:** ![sjc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@sjc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sjc)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-human-cleanly-throw-a-baseball-through-a-pizza-box/639264/276 "2012-11-08T05:04:52Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Well, if the horizontal bar were one tick to the right when the sound comes, you would notice it. Which is exactly what would happen if there were a 50ms delay. Ergo, you would notice a 50ms delay. Which you apparently already agree with. Not necessarily true. Our perception of visual and auditory information doesn’t synch up exactly. Our brain does all sorts of processing to make sense of the world, and one of the things it does is match sounds up in our head with visual cues. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-human-cleanly-throw-a-baseball-through-a-pizza-box/639264/277 "2012-11-08T09:19:03Z")
> [@sjc](#): > > Not necessarily true. Our perception of visual and auditory information doesn’t synch up exactly. Our brain does all sorts of processing to make sense of the world, and one of the things it does is match sounds up in our head with visual cues. I disagree in this case. It’s sort of like the situation where you say “who are you” instead of “how are you” in greeting. Automatic brain processing results in most people hearing “how are you” But if they are listening for it, they will hear you say “who are you.” In the same way, it’s not too hard to notice a 50ms lag if you are looking for it. ---
**Author:** ![Sinisterniik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/51bf81/32.png) [@Sinisterniik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinisterniik)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-human-cleanly-throw-a-baseball-through-a-pizza-box/639264/278 "2012-11-08T15:20:59Z")
You keep using that example **brazil84** , but I don’t think it’s really relevant. We’re hijacking this thread now, so later today I’m going to post another thread on the topic with a little test for the Dopers to prove your hypothesis definitively one way or another. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-human-cleanly-throw-a-baseball-through-a-pizza-box/639264/279 "2012-11-08T17:06:37Z")
> [@Sinisterniik](#): > > You keep using that example **brazil84** , but I don’t think it’s really relevant. We’re hijacking this thread now, so later today I’m going to post another thread on the topic with a little test for the Dopers to prove your hypothesis definitively one way or another. A link! A link! We must have a link! ---
**Author:** ![Sinisterniik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/51bf81/32.png) [@Sinisterniik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinisterniik)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-human-cleanly-throw-a-baseball-through-a-pizza-box/639264/280 "2012-11-08T17:29:31Z")
Here you go: > **[Can you pass this audio test?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=671626)** > > There’s an epic debate going on in GQ over the authenticity of a viral video. There’s a lot of sub-debates going on within the thread, one of which concerns the perceptibility of sound delay. brazil84 seems to think that a delay of 40 ms is... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-human-cleanly-throw-a-baseball-through-a-pizza-box/639264.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-human-cleanly-throw-a-baseball-through-a-pizza-box/639264.md?page=15)