# Can a King/Queen be removed by the government? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 28, 2018, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-king-queen-be-removed-by-the-government/826826 "2018-12-28T13:07:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2018, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-king-queen-be-removed-by-the-government/826826/41 "2018-12-29T20:34:12Z")
What if, indeed? That’s what parliamentary and public debate is all about - thrashing out all the implications of each new proposal. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2018, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-king-queen-be-removed-by-the-government/826826/42 "2018-12-29T21:43:49Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > I was not responding to the OP, but to the question which I quoted. My interpretation of that question was that they are asking if there are currently established procedures for that purpose. No, in Japan’s case it would require a change in law, which I clearly stated in my third paragraph. > > In contrast, there are established laws concerning the change in governments, for example. > > If the question were phrased such as “Is it possible for this to happen?” Then the obvious answer is that in all modern democracies then anything the voters decide could eventually occur, although depending on the subject, it would be difficult and perhaps impossible from a practical standpoint. Fair enough. These are indeed two different questions, either or both of which may be of interest to the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2018, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-king-queen-be-removed-by-the-government/826826/43 "2018-12-29T23:21:45Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > I don’t mean by an armed method , by a legal method. > > Can the UK, Sweden, Spain, etc. parliament decide one day to say “we prefer John Smith to be King and approve that law?” And the current King/Queen no longer has the title. It would take at least three years in Sweden, if we should stick to constitutional law (it would have to be approved by two succinct governments, with a general election in between) but yes, it could happen (though I find chances today pretty much like zero). It could and did happen much more readily [in the old days](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_IV_Adolf_of_Sweden)… ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-king-queen-be-removed-by-the-government/826826/44 "2018-12-30T02:48:33Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Japan does not. In fact, when the current Emperor wanted to abdicate, a special law was required in order to allow this, and the law was customized for only him… Neither does the UK; when Edward VIII abdicated back in 1936 his “Instrument of Abdication” was just him declaring his wish to abdicate in writing. Then Parliament\* passed a law declaring that he was no longer king and that his descendants wouldn’t have any inheritances rights to the crown (nor would he or them require royal permission to marry). Only once Royal Assent was granted in his name to the act did Edward VIII cease to be king. Just like in Japan it was a special law that applied only in that specific case. \*Canada, South Africa, and the Irish Free State passed their own laws with the same effect to demonstrate their recent independence under the Statute of Westminster. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-king-queen-be-removed-by-the-government/826826/45 "2018-12-30T06:50:11Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > In Canada, it’s simply “The Queen.”. Well, in English Canada anyway. Charles will certainly be the next king, unless he dies before Elizabeth. It may be short-lived, but he’s been groomed for this his whole life. > [@septimus](#): > > (Remember: my question isn’t what her _technical_ title is — it’s what do ordinary folk call her when chatting in a pub, assuming they choose to append an _“of Placename”_ at all.) I have to agree with **Leaffan** , at least as far as Canada goes. Constitutionally and legally, Elizabeth is styled Queen of Canada, though in everyday conversation between ordinary people, she is simply referred to as the Queen. There are a few people in Canada who will refer to her as Queen of England, but they tend to be those who cannot wrap their heads around the fact that the two offices (Queen of Canada and Queen of the UK) are embodied in the same person. So, simply “the Queen” works well. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-king-queen-be-removed-by-the-government/826826/46 "2018-12-30T08:05:24Z")
It’s like our postage stamps. They don’t mention that they’re from the UK, either. Other countries’ stamps do, and their heads of state usually need to be identified by their country too. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-king-queen-be-removed-by-the-government/826826/47 "2018-12-30T16:31:05Z")
as far as changes go it only took 1000 years or so to change that a woman can be queen rather than her younger brother . The changes come at the speed of glaciers. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-king-queen-be-removed-by-the-government/826826/48 "2018-12-30T17:20:40Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Sophia of Hanover was the Heir Presumptive when she died in 1714. She died in June and Queen Anne (her cousin) died in August; if that had been reversed, Sophia would have become Queen at the age of 83. The current king of Saudi Arabia, Salman, succeeded his brother Abdullah at age 79. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-king-queen-be-removed-by-the-government/826826/49 "2018-12-30T20:23:59Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Charles I and James II didn’t want to be removed either and refused all cooperation with Parliamentary attempts to depose them. But Parliament won. > [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > In that case, Parliament would exercise a block vote. > [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > Even if you only look within the strict parameters of written law, they could get Miss Zenouska Mowatt to agree to give royal assent and then declare everyone else before her to be unfit to do so. Imagine the 25th Amendment but with thousands of successors. So effectively if Parliament wants the Monarch removed via legal means and the Monarch refuses to cooperate and withholds Royal Assent, then the House of Commons will lead a coup and install whomever they want? ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-king-queen-be-removed-by-the-government/826826/50 "2018-12-30T21:09:04Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So effectively if Parliament wants the Monarch removed via legal means and the Monarch refuses to cooperate and withholds Royal Assent, then the House of Commons will lead a coup and install whomever they want? Broadly so, yes. It would depend on the precise issue at hand. If the Commons was acting against the wishes of the majority of the public, that would be a potential break on the Commons. But if the monarch were in trouble for breaching the many conventions surrounding the operation of the monarchy and running the reputation of the Crown and/or country through the mud, then there’s little kidding which institution would win a battle of wills. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-king-queen-be-removed-by-the-government/826826/51 "2018-12-30T23:23:52Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Broadly so, yes. It would depend on the precise issue at hand. If the Commons was acting against the wishes of the majority of the public, that would be a potential break on the Commons. But if the monarch were in trouble for breaching the many conventions surrounding the operation of the monarchy and running the reputation of the Crown and/or country through the mud, then there’s little kidding which institution would win a battle of wills. I thought that an important part of Parliamentary Supremacy was Royal Assent? Wouldn’t Parliament be acting unconstitutionally if it removed the monarchy without such assent? Could the UK Courts rule the Act to be invalid as not a proper power of Parliament? That seems to be a structural necessity much like a majority vote. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-king-queen-be-removed-by-the-government/826826/52 "2018-12-31T00:34:06Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > as far as changes go it only took 1000 years or so to change that a woman can be queen rather than her younger brother . The changes come at the speed of glaciers. Compared to Japan, it’s at a breathtaking pace. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-king-queen-be-removed-by-the-government/826826/53 "2018-12-31T07:46:29Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I thought that an important part of Parliamentary Supremacy was Royal Assent? Wouldn’t Parliament be acting unconstitutionally if it removed the monarchy without such assent? Could the UK Courts rule the Act to be invalid as not a proper power of Parliament? > > That seems to be a structural necessity much like a majority vote. You’re absolutely correct. But such a circumstance would have put us beyond a pale the country hasn’t been beyond in some centuries. If the monarch violated constitutional norms, then constitutional norms regarding parliamentary deference to the Crown may come under threat. After all, technically Parliament violated the constitution in 1642, 1649, and 1689 when it went against the monarchy, but here we are. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-king-queen-be-removed-by-the-government/826826/54 "2018-12-31T07:57:17Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I thought that an important part of Parliamentary Supremacy was Royal Assent? Wouldn’t Parliament be acting unconstitutionally if it removed the monarchy without such assent? Could the UK Courts rule the Act to be invalid as not a proper power of Parliament? > > That seems to be a structural necessity much like a majority vote. Not if Parliament decides to change the rules and the public at large shows no sign of punishing them electorally for doing so (best assessed by first having a general election and/or referendum on the issue). ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-king-queen-be-removed-by-the-government/826826/55 "2018-12-31T08:07:31Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > After all, technically Parliament violated the constitution in 1642, 1649, and 1689 when it went against the monarchy, but here we are. Parliament of the day assessed the situation as the monarch going against the constitutional norms. In 1642, it was Charles who had sought not only to rule without Parliament, but also to arrest some of its members for their opinions, and eventually to raise an army against Parliament. In 1649, he had sought to re-launch the civil war against Parliament that he had lost. In 1688, James had fled, eventually to raise an Army with French support, but initially was deemed to have abdicated and to have been succeeded by his daughter and nephew (who just happened to be the only successful general against Louis XIV). “Treason never prospers - What’s the reason? If it prosper, None dare call it treason”. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-king-queen-be-removed-by-the-government/826826/56 "2018-12-31T08:56:14Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > After all, technically Parliament violated the constitution in 1642, 1649, and 1689 when it went against the monarchy, but here we are. There’s also the precedent of the regency for George III, where both houses essentially directed that the Lord Chancellor fake the king’s assent. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-king-queen-be-removed-by-the-government/826826/57 "2018-12-31T15:24:41Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > Parliament of the day assessed the situation as the monarch going against the constitutional norms. > > In 1642, it was Charles who had sought not only to rule without Parliament, but also to arrest some of its members for their opinions, and eventually to raise an army against Parliament. In 1649, he had sought to re-launch the civil war against Parliament that he had lost. In 1688, James had fled, eventually to raise an Army with French support, but initially was deemed to have abdicated and to have been succeeded by his daughter and nephew (who just happened to be the only successful general against Louis XIV). > > “Treason never prospers - > What’s the reason? > If it prosper, > None dare call it treason”. Again, this just demonstrates my point. If the Crown undermines constitutional norms, then it risks Parliament doing it too. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-king-queen-be-removed-by-the-government/826826/58 "2018-12-31T15:26:58Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > There’s also the precedent of the regency for George III, where both houses essentially directed that the Lord Chancellor fake the king’s assent. Excellent point. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-king-queen-be-removed-by-the-government/826826/59 "2018-12-31T17:11:57Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > And as an example, they recently amended the succession to make male and female heirs equal… For more: [Succession to the Crown Act 2013 - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_to_the_Crown_Act_2013) > [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > …Didn’t Belgium’s king refuse to sign an abortion law sometime in the Nineties, and Parliament declared him incapacitated until the law was passed anyway?.. Something like that: [https://www.nytimes.com/1990/04/05/world/belgian-king-unable-to-sign-abortion-law-takes-day-off.html](https://www.nytimes.com/1990/04/05/world/belgian-king-unable-to-sign-abortion-law-takes-day-off.html) ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2019, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-king-queen-be-removed-by-the-government/826826/60 "2019-01-01T03:29:32Z")
So here’s my question: Suppose the House of Commons passes a bill to give 4.2 Billion pounds to Ms Polly’s Home for Precocious Pussies ran by (coincidentally) the PMs sister. Assuming the monarch refuses Royal Assent and the public does not support such a disbursement. The PM tries to remove the Monarch - are we sure Parliament would win such a battle? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-king-queen-be-removed-by-the-government/826826.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-king-queen-be-removed-by-the-government/826826.md?page=4)