# Can a men's chorus exclude gays? Exclude straights? How about a basketball league? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 21, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-mens-chorus-exclude-gays-exclude-straights-how-about-a-basketball-league/616405 "2012-03-21T14:09:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-mens-chorus-exclude-gays-exclude-straights-how-about-a-basketball-league/616405/1 "2012-03-21T14:09:32Z")
Can an amateur men’s chorus exclude gay men – that is, make a rule that membership is open only to straight men? Can that same chorus exclude straight men? How about a basketball league? Can they make a rule excluding gays? How about excluding straight men? Could they simply limit the number of straight men on a team? Limit the number of gay men on a team? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-mens-chorus-exclude-gays-exclude-straights-how-about-a-basketball-league/616405/2 "2012-03-21T14:17:00Z")
Are they solely private entities which don’t receive public funds? Sure, why not. ETA: We’ll exclude other public assistance too, like use of municipal facilities. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-mens-chorus-exclude-gays-exclude-straights-how-about-a-basketball-league/616405/3 "2012-03-21T14:18:13Z")
Do you mean as a matter of law, or as a matter of propriety? Or both? Or something else? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-mens-chorus-exclude-gays-exclude-straights-how-about-a-basketball-league/616405/4 "2012-03-21T14:19:29Z")
Sexual orientation isn’t a federally protected class, and I’m fairly certain no state allows their local protection to extend to glee clubs. Eagerly anticipating the classic **Bricker** gotcha moment… ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-mens-chorus-exclude-gays-exclude-straights-how-about-a-basketball-league/616405/5 "2012-03-21T14:27:35Z")
This is about Four Poofs and a Piano isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-mens-chorus-exclude-gays-exclude-straights-how-about-a-basketball-league/616405/6 "2012-03-21T14:28:43Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > Do you mean as a matter of law, or as a matter of propriety? Or both? Or something else? Both, I think. As a matter of law, sexual orientation isn’t federally protected, but I think there are states where it is, so perhaps we could picture one of those states - say, New York (?) ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-mens-chorus-exclude-gays-exclude-straights-how-about-a-basketball-league/616405/7 "2012-03-21T14:31:47Z")
I don’t know about “can”, but many women’s college basketball teams apparently do exclude lesbian players. A while back there was an _ESPN The Magazine_ article about Rene Portland, the former Penn State women’s BB coach, who openly discriminated against lesbians despite university regulations explicitly forbidding discrimination with regards to sexual orientation. I was at Penn State when that policy was passed by the Board of Trustees and Portland’s open flouting of it was a **huge** issue. Eventually she got canned for it (_12 years_ after the policy was passed), but the gist of the article was that discrimination still was rife in women’s basketball. Several coaches used code words like “this is a family program” to let prospective players know that homosexuality was not tolerated on the team. Most coaches were wary of going on the record, but the consensus was that if Portland hadn’t been so open about her “no lesbians” rule she could have gone on discriminating and would probably be still coaching today. There’s a documentary called [_Training Rules_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Training_Rules) about Portland and women’s college basketball in general that focuses on the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-mens-chorus-exclude-gays-exclude-straights-how-about-a-basketball-league/616405/8 "2012-03-21T14:39:15Z")
Legally I don’t think there’s a problem. My understanding is that anti-discrimination laws only extend to things like “public accommodations” or institutions receiving public money. I don’t think amateur organizations would count in either scenario, assuming they aren’t associated with a public college or something. The Boy Scouts seem to get away with it, in any case. As a matter of propriety, it seems pretty douchey to exclude gays, unless the group is one whose mission is particularly focused on straights somehow (such as one where the main purpose is for straight single people to meet each other for romantic purposes). ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-mens-chorus-exclude-gays-exclude-straights-how-about-a-basketball-league/616405/9 "2012-03-21T14:59:07Z")
How do applicants to the men’s chorus “prove” their sexual orientation? How would the choral director prove otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-mens-chorus-exclude-gays-exclude-straights-how-about-a-basketball-league/616405/10 "2012-03-21T15:22:25Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > How do applicants to the men’s chorus “prove” their sexual orientation? How would the choral director prove otherwise? Personal auditions, I imagine. Let’s not focus so much on the law, because I think there’s not too much remedy (yet) for this kind of discrimination in the law, some states notwithstanding. How about from a social policy, “is it good” perspective? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-mens-chorus-exclude-gays-exclude-straights-how-about-a-basketball-league/616405/11 "2012-03-21T15:27:01Z")
I don’t think there is any objective benefit to be gained from making a basketball league hetero- or homo-only, regardless of the feelings of the participants. On the other hand, there is a general presumption that people should be free to associate (or disassociate) with whoever they like. In the final analysis, I think it pretty much depends on whether there are alternatives. If people who don’t give a shit (or are excluded) have equally good inclusive leagues or choruses to join, fine. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-mens-chorus-exclude-gays-exclude-straights-how-about-a-basketball-league/616405/12 "2012-03-21T15:40:43Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > How do applicants to the men’s chorus “prove” their sexual orientation? How would the choral director prove otherwise? For that matter, what “level” of gayness? Never been with a person of the opposite gender? Have, but not longer want to? Bi? Had a fling in college? I was once asked to give a clinic to a gay mens’ volleyball group. While making the arrangements I asked, “Does it matter that I’m not gay?” The director smiled and said, “We don’t check at the door.” ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-mens-chorus-exclude-gays-exclude-straights-how-about-a-basketball-league/616405/13 "2012-03-21T15:43:09Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > How do applicants to the men’s chorus “prove” their sexual orientation? How would the choral director prove otherwise? > [@Bricker](#): > > Personal auditions, I imagine. :eek: Wow! When I joined Pacific Chorale, I only had to prove that I had sufficient ability to sightread to handle the music program. I figure personal auditions would be too much trouble, come to think of it. C’mon, you’d have people without a scintilla of interest signing up just for the opportunity to audition and get their nut off. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-mens-chorus-exclude-gays-exclude-straights-how-about-a-basketball-league/616405/14 "2012-03-21T15:44:39Z")
Musical purists argue for keeping gays out of choirs on the grounds that it would [queer the pitch](http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/queer-the-pitch.html). ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-mens-chorus-exclude-gays-exclude-straights-how-about-a-basketball-league/616405/15 "2012-03-21T15:51:14Z")
Legally, private organizations can discriminate. Morally it depends on why and what kind of experience you would expect in a standard group of that type. The four situations are not all the same. If you group A wants to exclude group B because the members of group A don’t like the members of group B, then that is simply bigotry. But when there is a history of hatred or discrimination, then things get a little complicated. Or if there is a cultural distinct minority that does not want to be overwhelmed by the majority. Of the examples four options in the OP (straight chorus/gay chorus and straight basketball/gay basketball) I would be most inclined to give a pass to the gay basketball (or almost any sport) league just due to the history of homophobia that still exists in sports. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-mens-chorus-exclude-gays-exclude-straights-how-about-a-basketball-league/616405/16 "2012-03-21T15:56:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Can an amateur men’s chorus exclude gay men – that is, make a rule that membership is open only to straight men? > > Can that same chorus exclude straight men? > > How about a basketball league? Can they make a rule excluding gays? How about excluding straight men? Could they simply limit the number of straight men on a team? Limit the number of gay men on a team? Aren’t you the lawyer here? Why are you asking us? And besides- how, exactly, would these organizations test whether an applicant is gay or straight? Is there some sort of oral exam? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-mens-chorus-exclude-gays-exclude-straights-how-about-a-basketball-league/616405/17 "2012-03-21T16:00:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Can an amateur men’s chorus exclude gay men – that is, make a rule that membership is open only to straight men? > > Can that same chorus exclude straight men? If a chorus excludes gay men, and that same chorus excludes straight men, it’s going to be a pretty small chorus. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-mens-chorus-exclude-gays-exclude-straights-how-about-a-basketball-league/616405/18 "2012-03-21T16:03:43Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > If a chorus excludes gay men, and that same chorus excludes straight men, it’s going to be a pretty small chorus. They could sing Bi, Bi, Blackbird.😃 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-mens-chorus-exclude-gays-exclude-straights-how-about-a-basketball-league/616405/19 "2012-03-21T16:08:30Z")
Has the gotchaya! been dropped yet? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-mens-chorus-exclude-gays-exclude-straights-how-about-a-basketball-league/616405/20 "2012-03-21T16:15:36Z")
I don’t think there is one. I scrolled all the way down the Volokh Conspiracy main page, too. Incidentally, if anyone thinks we lefty elites at the Dope are smug and self assured, it turns out we’re not alone. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-mens-chorus-exclude-gays-exclude-straights-how-about-a-basketball-league/616405.md?page=2)