# Can a nation ne removed from the U.N. security council? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 5, 2003, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-nation-ne-removed-from-the-u-n-security-council/153035 "2003-02-05T20:01:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-nation-ne-removed-from-the-u-n-security-council/153035/1 "2003-02-05T20:01:11Z")
Can a nation be removed from the U.N. security council? If so, how? ---
**Author:** ![Spiff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiff/32/9852_2.png) [@Spiff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiff)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-nation-ne-removed-from-the-u-n-security-council/153035/2 "2003-02-05T20:14:38Z")
In the 15-member UN Security Council, there are five permanent members: U.S.A., France, China, (whatever the ex-Soviet Union is now called), and the U.K. The remaining 10 members are elected by the general assembly for two-year terms. So, yes, there is a regular process to bring in and out 10 members of the security council. But the five permanent members are, well, permanent. Which category of security council members were you referring to? [http://www.un.org/Docs/scinfo.htm](http://www.un.org/Docs/scinfo.htm) (And do you want to kick out France? I ask only because there’s been a lot of France-bashing on the SDMB lately … 😃 (I see from my URL cite that the ex-USSR is called the **Russian Federation.** ) ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-nation-ne-removed-from-the-u-n-security-council/153035/3 "2003-02-05T20:27:07Z")
Presumably, the “permanent” members are just that. I can’t imagine that they could be removed unless that nation agreed to it. It’s probably a bit short-sighted to kick out a permanent member because you disagree with them. During the entire history of the UN, I would think that each of the permanent members has wanted to give one of its own the boot. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-nation-ne-removed-from-the-u-n-security-council/153035/4 "2003-02-05T20:35:32Z")
BobT: you are assuming that I want to kick someone out? Viva La France! 🙂 If I were king of the world for an hour, I might kick them out, but the whole issue does raise the question of just what to do when a nation on the permanent security council borders on a rogue nation (not calling France rogue, just going after what ifs) So, permanent security council privelages are permanent? Just a bit scary to me. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-nation-ne-removed-from-the-u-n-security-council/153035/5 "2003-02-05T21:55:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spiff \* > \*\*In the 15-member UN Security Council, there are five permanent members: > > U.S.A., France, China, (whatever the ex-Soviet Union is now called), and the U.K. > \*\* Which poses an interesting question. How did the Russian Federation get to be permanent ? It was the Soviet Union (a group of 15-17 republics) which was the permanent member. How did they decide to pass on that seat onto Russia after the breakup ? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-nation-ne-removed-from-the-u-n-security-council/153035/6 "2003-02-05T22:34:03Z")
Presumably, removing any members from the Security Council would require a vote of a majority of the Security Council. And the 5 permanent members each have veto power over any resolutions. So there is no practical way to remove a permanent member. Even if they change status. The status change would have to be voted on by the Security Council… There is some question as to whether a majority vote by the entire membership might supercede the authority of the Security Council, but AFAIK it’s never even been tried. ---
**Author:** ![Amok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f17d59/32.png) [@Amok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amok)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-nation-ne-removed-from-the-u-n-security-council/153035/7 "2003-02-05T23:01:57Z")
Well, in a sense, Taiwan removed itself from a position as a permenent member of the Security Council. Of course, it held that position in its role as the _de jure_ government of China, and as more and more countries dropped recognition of Taiwan and recognized mainland China, along with the growing realization that the KMT was never going to restablish itself on the mainland, that role became increasingly untenable. In 1971 the Taiwanese government voluntarily gave up its seat, but my understanding is that it did so in anticipation of a UN ruling that the communist government in Beijing was the legitimate ruler of China (and thus entitled to China’s seat on the Security Council). I’ve never understood why Taiwan wouldn’t have been able to veto such a resolution though. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-nation-ne-removed-from-the-u-n-security-council/153035/8 "2003-02-05T23:13:11Z")
The only way I can think of is for the General Assembly to kick them out of the entire UN. This does not require the approval of the Security Council (I think), but it requires - what? Two thirds of the GA? Three quarters? ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-nation-ne-removed-from-the-u-n-security-council/153035/9 "2003-02-05T23:30:02Z")
Russia was recognized by pretty much every country as the successor to the Soviet Union for the purposes of all international agreements. It makes things a lot easier that way. The present Chinese government was recognized by the UN as the official representative of that country on October 25, 1971 after a vote of 76-35 (with 17 abstentions) in the General Assembly. The resolution was sponsored by Albania, Algeria, Ceylon, Congo, Cuba, Equitorial Guinea, Guinea, Iraq, Mali, Mauritania, Nepal, Pakistan, Rumania, Somalia, South Yemen, Syria, Sudan, Tanzania, Yemen, Yugoslavia, and Zambia. The U.S. tried to make the issue subject to a 2/3 vote, but that failed by 4 votes. The US ambassador to the UN at the time, one George HW Bush, accused 7 nations of reneging on a promise to make the vote 2/3. Those were Belgium, Cyprus, Morocco, Oman, Qatar, Tunisia, and Trinidad-Tobago. Once the 2/3 limit was off, more countries found it easier to vote to boot out Taiwan. Once Taiwan knew it was going to lose, its representatives walked out. Nixon was quite upset at the vote and was perturbed that some of the delegates to the General Assembly were literally dancing in the aisles after the vote. Apparently, he got over it. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-nation-ne-removed-from-the-u-n-security-council/153035/10 "2003-02-05T23:54:40Z")
Look for yourself. [http://www.un.org/Overview/Charter/chapter2.html](http://www.un.org/Overview/Charter/chapter2.html) [http://www.un.org/Overview/Charter/chapter5.html](http://www.un.org/Overview/Charter/chapter5.html) It appears that the only mechanism for removal of a permanent member is suspension from the UN as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Winsling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Winsling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Winsling)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-nation-ne-removed-from-the-u-n-security-council/153035/11 "2003-02-06T00:45:26Z")
And since I bothered looking it up, the resolution: > [@](#): > > The General Assembly, Recalling the principles of the Charter of United Nations, Considering that the restoration of the lawful rights of the People’s Republic of China is essential both for the protection of the Charter of the United Nations and for the cause that the United Nations must serve under the Charter, Recognizing that the representatives of the Government of the People’s Republic of China are the only lawful representatives of China to the United Nations and that the People’s Republic of China is one of the five permanent members of Security Council, Decides to restore all its rights to the People’s Republic of China and to recognize the representatives of its Government as the only legitimate representatives of China to the United Nations, and to expel forthwith the representatives of Chiang Kai-shek from the place they unlawfully occupy at the United Nations and in all the organizations related to it. Resolution 2759, passed October 25, 1971 Hal ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-nation-ne-removed-from-the-u-n-security-council/153035/12 "2003-02-06T00:54:52Z")
BTW, it’s a lot easier to reject the credentials of a country’s representative than it is to throw out the country itself. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-nation-ne-removed-from-the-u-n-security-council/153035/14 "2014-05-28T04:46:47Z")
Reported.