# Can a Native English Speaker Ever Truly Learn Mandarin Chinese? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 7, 2022, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-native-english-speaker-ever-truly-learn-mandarin-chinese/965804 "2022-06-07T11:56:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![irae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f0a364/32.png) [@irae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irae)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-native-english-speaker-ever-truly-learn-mandarin-chinese/965804/21 "2022-06-07T17:17:07Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > (Sadly, there were some horrific language miscommunications/misunderstandings between them and local Taiwanese as a result of tone butchering - or hilarious, depending on how you see it.) Mispronouncing ‘wonton soup and dry noodles’ can easily send the message that you want rectum soup and intercourse noodles for lunch. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-native-english-speaker-ever-truly-learn-mandarin-chinese/965804/22 "2022-06-07T18:03:41Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Yeah, I think we’re all trying to parse Jim’s sentence in a way that it might make some sort of sense. > [@Jim\_B](#): > > It’s a funny thing about sounds in languages. If you don’t pick them up as a young child, you forever lose that window in time to do so. It makes _perfect sense_ and is based on well established understanding of sensory perception development. To give a very basic example - it underlies why it is important to identify hearing impairment early on. The brain has critical and sensitive periods for development. If input _attached to salience_ is not provided early on then the brain to significant degrees loses its chance. Between languages it is indeed well established as true also. The infamous “l” “r” bit with Japanese and English is real based on early experience shaping the brain’s wiring: [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0028393271900273](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0028393271900273) That said I do NOT think such is the case for tones in Mandarin: [https://asa.scitation.org/doi/10.1121/1.4971765](https://asa.scitation.org/doi/10.1121/1.4971765) ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-native-english-speaker-ever-truly-learn-mandarin-chinese/965804/23 "2022-06-07T18:56:10Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > It’s a funny thing about sounds in languages. If you don’t pick them up as a young child, you forever lose that window in time to do so. I remember in one college class I had, the teacher played a video of a Native American using a sound native to that language. And most of the people in the class literally didn’t hear a thing. Just one girl seemed to hear it, which apparently was quite impressive. > [@DSeid](#): > > It makes _perfect sense_ and is based on well established understanding of sensory perception development. I mean come on. Read the second half of what Jim said. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-native-english-speaker-ever-truly-learn-mandarin-chinese/965804/24 "2022-06-07T22:11:07Z")
I read it and while Manadarin may not be more unique than every language is, the bigger point is valid The incredulity expressed regarding how those raised in different languages literally do not have the wiring to perceive some other language sound distinctions, calling the question “odd” was misplaced. The specific question about a critical period for learning tonality in Mandarin has been seriously discussed academically. The current consensus has apparently become that unlike some other language specific sounds it is NOT the case, but it was not obviously so. It was a reasonable question and those who have not appreciated that being raised during childhood in a specific spoken language environment literally impacts how you hear and distinguish language sounds in a lasting manner may find the facts interesting. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-native-english-speaker-ever-truly-learn-mandarin-chinese/965804/25 "2022-06-07T22:25:33Z")
It’s one thing not to be able to distinguish between two different sounds- which implies that you can hear both but don’t hear a difference. This > I remember in one college class I had, the teacher played a video of a Native American using a sound native to that language. And most of the people in the class literally didn’t hear a thing. says that most people didn’t hear the sound _at all_ - and that’s completely different. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-native-english-speaker-ever-truly-learn-mandarin-chinese/965804/26 "2022-06-07T22:40:30Z")
The good news for Mandarin learners is that once you get beyond the difficulty of tones or memorizing characters, Chinese grammar and word structure itself is remarkably simple and easy to comprehend, a lot easier than English. In fact, it may be the simplest in the world. “Computer,” in Chinese, is “electronic brain.” “Elevator” is “electric ladder.” “Windshield” is “block-wind glass.” “(computer) mouse” is “sliding rodent.” “Refrigerator” is “cold box.” “Airplane” is “flying machine.” “Kangaroo” is “bag rodent.” “Owl” is “cat-head bird.” Once you learn the individual characters, the words that ensue, from being able to piece them together, are highly intuitive. Whereas a Chinese person could gaze at the English words “kaleidoscope”, “kindergarten,” “miscellaneous,” or “rendezvous” and be like… **wut**? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-native-english-speaker-ever-truly-learn-mandarin-chinese/965804/27 "2022-06-07T22:48:05Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Whereas a Chinese person could gaze at the English words “kaleidoscope”, “kindergarten,” “miscellaneous,” or “rendezvous” and be like… **wut**? What are the Chinese words for “kaleidoscope,” “kindergarten,” “miscellaneous,” and “rendezvous”? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-native-english-speaker-ever-truly-learn-mandarin-chinese/965804/28 "2022-06-07T22:54:24Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > What are the Chinese words for “kaleidoscope,” “kindergarten,” “miscellaneous,” and “rendezvous”? Kaleidoscope = _wan hua tong_, “ten-thousand-flowers tube” Kindergarten = _youziyuan_ or _youeryuan_, a bit hard to translate, but basically, “young children’s institute” Miscellaneous = _zalei_, “various types” (or, “many categories”) Rendezvous = _hueihe_, “group unite” or “(more than one party) unite” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-native-english-speaker-ever-truly-learn-mandarin-chinese/965804/29 "2022-06-07T22:56:54Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > The incredulity expressed regarding how those raised in different languages literally do not have the wiring to perceive some other language sound distinctions, calling the question “odd” was misplaced. You’re missing what the other posters were expressing incredulity at. What you wrote is basically what I was getting at in my reply. The way Jim’s sentence was written was as if they literally did not hear anything. (Note the comment about it being ultrasonic.)I was parsing it as that was not what Jim meant, but rather they probably didn’t hear the difference between sounds, and couldn’t hear some aspect of the sound that carried meaning. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-native-english-speaker-ever-truly-learn-mandarin-chinese/965804/30 "2022-06-07T23:18:06Z")
And even that is not an unfounded thought. We actively _create_ and filter _out_ more of what we perceive than many appreciate, imposing top down what we expect to experience (some of these expectations hardwired, some developed including during critical and sensitive periods) onto the bottom up noise of inputs. Such is the basis of a variety of illusions. We are all familiar we how we “see” corners, lines, lengths, colors, faces/vases … not actually there … and filter out that which our brains declare as noise. Within the context of spoken languages there are sounds that we “hear” that we not actually there, primed to experience the sound that is salient and that “should” be there. Some sounds that were faint also someone primed top down for it heard while someone with a different top down prime literally does not, the brain filtering it out as noise before it hits a conscious level. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-native-english-speaker-ever-truly-learn-mandarin-chinese/965804/31 "2022-06-07T23:21:19Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > For example, Polish has two types of “sh” and “ch” sounds. Most English speakers will hear those sounds as allophones and may have difficulty hearing the difference It’s kinda like shch sound in Russian. When I was learning, several people in the class could never master it. I didn’t think it was all difficult. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2022, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-native-english-speaker-ever-truly-learn-mandarin-chinese/965804/32 "2022-06-07T23:31:16Z")
Yeah, Polish has that as _szcz_ or _ść_ (slightly different articulations.) It shows up in the word for “hi”: _cześć_, pronounced close to “cheshch.” ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2022, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-native-english-speaker-ever-truly-learn-mandarin-chinese/965804/33 "2022-06-08T00:04:48Z")
Our textbook said to say it like daniSH CHeese. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2022, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-native-english-speaker-ever-truly-learn-mandarin-chinese/965804/34 "2022-06-08T00:13:27Z")
Yes, it literally just is a “sh”+“ch” sound (or very close enough.) Problem is, that’s not a normal sequence of phonemes in English, only between words, so far as I could think of. I grew up with those sounds together in a Polish household, so it’s natural/native for me. Similarly, there is the consonant cluster “pt” like in the word _ptak_, “bird”, that English speakers always want to say as “puh-tock” when there really isn’t a vocalized “uh” in between the first two letters. I can say “pt” without vibrating my vocal chords, basically going straight from the unvoiced “p” to the unvoiced “t” without inserting a vowel, but that’s a cluster that’s unusual in English, so most people want to stick a schwa in between. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2022, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-native-english-speaker-ever-truly-learn-mandarin-chinese/965804/35 "2022-06-08T01:40:46Z")
ITT I learned that some entire written words and sentences are invisible to other people as well. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2022, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-native-english-speaker-ever-truly-learn-mandarin-chinese/965804/36 "2022-06-08T01:59:56Z")
I know people who speak decent Chinese but cannot write it well. Does that count? Chinese may be a difficult language, but it is also a very logical one. It does not have many different verb endings depending on the subject, and it is relatively easy to use a basic past tense or future tense. There is very little added nonsense. That does not make it easy, but it does help. Traditionally, I have heard Chinese language speakers felt it was impossible for foreigners to learn their language fully. Though I cannot judge, and am sure it is hard, I think many have learned it well, if not perfectly. I have also heard many speakers of Chinese also do not speak it perfectly. I could be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2022, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-native-english-speaker-ever-truly-learn-mandarin-chinese/965804/37 "2022-06-08T02:28:09Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > There’s a ton of Youtube videos with English speakers surprising the locals by speaking Cantonese or Mandarin. This is the first one I found. You can look down and find many other examples. I don’t know how good they are, not being a native speaker myself, but it does seem to impress the locals, at least: > > [Clueless White Guy Orders in Perfect Chinese, Shocks Patrons and Staff](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njn6krU3tQ8) What’s important to note about this guy’s videos is that he demonstrates that, yes, an adult can with effort, reach a level of fluency and ability to communicate. What it also shows is that he speaks with a _very_ strong American/Anglophone accent (at least in the languages that I have some familiarity with). But, you know what? That’s okay. Think about all the people who are able to get by reasonably well in English who don’t have a perfect grasp of pronunciation, accent, grammar, or vocabulary. Language is a tool, and the purpose of that tool is to communicate with other human beings. There are hundreds of millions of people (if not billions) around the world who are demonstrating every day that adults can manage to use a language without having to worry about learning to a level of a native speaker. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2022, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-native-english-speaker-ever-truly-learn-mandarin-chinese/965804/38 "2022-06-08T02:51:36Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > What it also shows is that he speaks with a _very_ strong American/Anglophone accent (at least in the languages that I have some familiarity with). But, you know what? That’s okay. Think about all the people who are able to get by reasonably well in English who don’t have a perfect grasp of pronunciation, accent, grammar, or vocabulary. Agreed, but some people definitely are able to transcend that as adults, from my experience, and become indistinguishable from locals. (I have a friend who learned Hungarian when he was in his late teens/early 20s and local after local have told me they detect no accent other than an Eastern Hungarian one on him, which is where he learned Hungarian.) I don’t know how common this is for speakers of tonal languages, but it would not surprise me if it can be done. That Chris guy upthread sounds pretty good to me, but I don’t speak Mandarin and am just relying on my impression and the comments to the video. And I don’t know when he learned the language. These days, many schools around here offer Mandarin at the elementary school level. All that aside, I agree with you – who cares if you have an accent? Unless you’re a spy in deep cover, it doesn’t matter as long as you are intelligible and fluent. I wouldn’t count the presence of an accent against rating someone’s fluency. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2022, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-native-english-speaker-ever-truly-learn-mandarin-chinese/965804/39 "2022-06-08T03:22:13Z")
What level are you talking about? Broadcast mandarin pronunciation? Deep techical engineering discussions? Every day? On the phone? China is full of native speakers that don’t speak broadcast level perfect mandarin given that probably a billion chinese do not speak Mandarin as their preferred native tounge. It isn’t unusual for people to think I’m a native speaker. Southern Chinese think I have a northern accent, and northerners think I have a southern accent. I spent most of my 20 years kinda in the middle. You have to really work at Chinese because it is tonal and no carry over from English. More importantly, you have to learn at least 5,000 characters. It is _really_ rare to find a non native chinese speaking fluently without learning characters. Learning thousands of characters requires brute memorization and takes time. Most non native speakers don’t invest that level (took me 4 years of university and hours per day during those 4 years). My University professor first learned mandarin at the Monterey Language Institute courtesy of the US Army and then shipped out for the Korean war. He went on to get a Harvard PhD in Chinese, studied the classics, and was incredibly fluent. His wife, my other prof, was a native Mandarin speaker from Nanjing. She would occaisionally make fun of him for using words that were obviously from a non-native speaker. So, it really boils down to how you define “truly learn” Mandarin Chinese. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2022, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-native-english-speaker-ever-truly-learn-mandarin-chinese/965804/40 "2022-06-08T03:45:31Z")
The immigration lawyer who helped my in-laws had an American partner who used a Chinese name. In all the times my wife (A native of Northern China and a professional interpreter) spoke to him on the phone for many hours cumulatively about very complex topics, she never realized he was a Jewish guy from Brooklyn who married his Chinese [law] partner moved to China and lived there for 10 years (early 1990s to early 2000s). In retrospect, she says his Mandarin was TOO good. Almost no one speaks perfect Mandarin. There’s always some influence of the native dialect (Beijing/Tianjin is closest but nowhere near identical to Mandarin). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-native-english-speaker-ever-truly-learn-mandarin-chinese/965804.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-native-english-speaker-ever-truly-learn-mandarin-chinese/965804.md?page=3)