# Can a novice land an airliner? Mythbusters testing it now! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 13, 2007, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-novice-land-an-airliner-mythbusters-testing-it-now/429801 "2007-12-13T02:08:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2007, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-novice-land-an-airliner-mythbusters-testing-it-now/429801/61 "2007-12-15T13:09:17Z")
Kari [dropped shorts](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJzJnLna0P0&feature=related) on the runway? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2007, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-novice-land-an-airliner-mythbusters-testing-it-now/429801/62 "2007-12-15T14:09:35Z")
[QUOTE=Omniscient] In that case a plane flew into a wake vortex which completely lies outside of the general case. [/quote] Not for closely-spaced in-trail departures at a busy airport, it isn’t. > [@](#): > > All I am arguing is that a amateur pilot couldn’t tear the plane apart by over-correcting on the controls. If he flies into a micro burst or a wake vortex all bets are off. The most experienced pilot would be just as dead as a novice in that situation. It isn’t hard at all to get into a stall-spin situation by misapplication of controls. That usually happens at low altitude, in the landing pattern, with the crash occurring before speed and G’s can build up enough to break the airplane, true - but if it occurs at altitude, it certainly can. That’s where awareness of the problem is usually instructed, of course. In fact, I’ve seen stats that show the #1 cause of stall-spin crashes to be flight instructors. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2007, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-novice-land-an-airliner-mythbusters-testing-it-now/429801/63 "2007-12-15T22:24:05Z")
[QUOTE=Broomstick] Is there a physical limiter of some sort that would make it impossible for an amateur to slam the controls to the stops? Some sort computer that would ignore such inputs? [/QUOTE] I can’t speak for all planes but generally there isn’t any kind of limiter, but that’s not really the issue. The control surfaces can only impart so much force, which is based on their surface area relative to the size of the wing, and that force simply isn’t enough to fracture the airframe. Non-military aircraft are intentionally designed that way. Slamming the controls will result in control reversal, not an extreme maneuver. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2007, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-novice-land-an-airliner-mythbusters-testing-it-now/429801/64 "2007-12-15T22:28:54Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Not for closely-spaced in-trail departures at a busy airport, it isn’t. [/QUOTE] I would hope that the general case doesn’t include situations where planes almost certainly crash. Wake vortex disasters certainly happen, and when it does it’s a case of pilot or controller error. To me the “general case” is intended use, which is to say situations for which the plane was designed and tested for. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2007, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-novice-land-an-airliner-mythbusters-testing-it-now/429801/65 "2007-12-15T23:27:22Z")
[QUOTE=Omniscient] I can’t speak for all planes but generally there isn’t any kind of limiter, but that’s not really the issue. The control surfaces can only impart so much force, which is based on their surface area relative to the size of the wing, and that force simply isn’t enough to fracture the airframe. Non-military aircraft are intentionally designed that way. Slamming the controls will result in control reversal, not an extreme maneuver. [/QUOTE] Funny - two years ago one of the FBO’s I flight out of had someone break the main spar of a wing while horsing around. (He survived, BTW) Control reversal? What? Maybe we’re working with different definitions of “extreme” - could you please define the term as you understand it? > [@](#): > > To me the “general case” is intended use, which is to say situations for which the plane was designed and tested for. But airliners are not designed or tested for use by non-pilots, are they? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2007, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-novice-land-an-airliner-mythbusters-testing-it-now/429801/66 "2007-12-16T00:03:59Z")
[QUOTE=Omniscient] The control surfaces can only impart so much force, which is based on their surface area relative to the size of the wing, and that force simply isn’t enough to fracture the airframe. [/quote] A too-rapid pullup while exiting a spin has folded up many a wing spar - from pitch moments applied solely by the elevator. > [@](#): > > Slamming the controls will result in control reversal, not an extreme maneuver. Um, yeah, please explain that, will you? ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2007, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-novice-land-an-airliner-mythbusters-testing-it-now/429801/67 "2007-12-16T00:21:37Z")
[QUOTE=mnemosyne] (after that perfect landing, they turned off the full-crash, and I deliberately crashed the plane into a lake, causing it to skip like a stone until it hit a cliff on the other side. That was fun too, but apparently with the full-crash setting, we’d all have some degree of whiplash!) [/QUOTE] The instructor landed mine gear up. Then when we were on the “ground” he put the gear down. First the nose went up as the gear deployed, then the rear of the “aircraft” as the mains deployed. Pretty damn funny at the time. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2007, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-novice-land-an-airliner-mythbusters-testing-it-now/429801/68 "2007-12-16T00:42:26Z")
The customary first action a pilot takes after hitting the ground gear-up is to move the gear switch to Down - before anyone else sees. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2007, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-novice-land-an-airliner-mythbusters-testing-it-now/429801/69 "2007-12-16T01:35:10Z")
[QUOTE=Broomstick] Funny - two years ago one of the FBO’s I flight out of had someone break the main spar of a wing while horsing around. (He survived, BTW) [/quote] Without more information it’s difficult to know what happened, but I think it probably falls outside the scenario that I’m discussing. In all likelihood one of two things occurred, the plane was improperly maintained and the failure is a result of damage or metal fatigue, or the pilot while “horsing around” put the plane into a dive and exceeded it’s maximum speed rating. I qualified my initial statement by excluding a dive scenario which will exceed the operating envelope of any plane. In that same vein recovering from a spin also is not a scenario which fits the OP and would not be in my definition of general use. I’m not arguing that you can’t break a plane, just that a novice isn’t going to do it by jerking the controls around, if he somehow got the plane into a spin or a dive or some extreme weather event all bets are off. > [@](#): > > Control reversal? What? Maybe we’re working with different definitions of “extreme” - could you please define the term as you understand it? The [Wikipedia entry](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_reversal) on the topic explains it fairly well. > [@Wiki](#): > > Another version of the problem occurs when the amount of airflow over the wing becomes great enough that the force generated by the ailerons is enough to twist the wing itself, due to insufficient torsional stiffness of the wing structure. For instance when the aileron is deflected upwards in order to make that wing move down, the wing twists in the opposite direction. The net result is that the airflow is directed down instead of up and the wing moves upward, opposite of what was expected. This form of control reversal is often lumped in with a number of “high speed” effects as compressibility. It’s a pretty likely scenario on a airliner traveling at high speed with it’s long flexible wings. Pretty rare on most small private planes though just because the wings are relatively short and rigid and the airspeeds are slow. > [@](#): > > But airliners are not designed or tested for use by non-pilots, are they? I think we’re speaking structurally and aerodynamically. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2007, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-novice-land-an-airliner-mythbusters-testing-it-now/429801/70 "2007-12-16T13:12:05Z")
[QUOTE=Omniscient] Without more information it’s difficult to know what happened, but I think it probably falls outside the scenario that I’m discussing. In all likelihood one of two things occurred, the plane was improperly maintained and the failure is a result of damage or metal fatigue [/quote] I have every reason to believe the airplane was meticulously maintained, with proper inspections and compliance to all AD’s, maintenance, etc. > [@](#): > > or the pilot while “horsing around” put the plane into a dive and exceeded it’s maximum speed rating. Actually, he exceeded its g rating. > [@](#): > > I qualified my initial statement by excluding a dive scenario which will exceed the operating envelope of any plane. In that same vein recovering from a spin also is not a scenario which fits the OP and would not be in my definition of general use. I’m not arguing that you can’t break a plane, just that a novice isn’t going to do it by jerking the controls around I still think you’re underestimating the _human_ factor here - why are you so certain a novice won’t mis-handle the controls? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2007, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-novice-land-an-airliner-mythbusters-testing-it-now/429801/71 "2007-12-16T19:20:09Z")
[QUOTE=Omniscient] In a large commercial aircraft, no you can’t. The flight control surfaces are simply too small, an aircraft will stall and fall out of the sky before you can generate enough Gs to sheer off the wings or otherwise damage the airframe. Military aircraft and small acrobatic craft are a different story **SenorBeef** implied otherwise. [/QUOTE] IANA pilot, but this doesn’t sound right to me. You _can’t_ maneuver a commercial airliner fast enough to structurally rip it apart, but you _can_ do it in aircraft that are designed for violent maneuvering? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-novice-land-an-airliner-mythbusters-testing-it-now/429801.md?page=3)