Can a person be convinced to cease breathing and die?

[Northern_Piper]

From the wiki article on breathing:

It is not possible for a healthy person to voluntarily stop breathing indefinitely. If one does not inhale, the level of carbon dioxide builds up in the blood, and one experiences overwhelming air hunger. This irrepressible reflex is not surprising given that without breathing, the body’s internal oxygen levels drop dangerously low within minutes, leading to permanent brain damage followed eventually by death. However, there have been instances where people have survived for as long as two hours without air; this is only possible when submerged in cold water, as this triggers the mammalian diving reflex[6] as well as putting the subject into a state of suspended animation.

If a healthy person were to voluntarily stop breathing (i.e. hold his or her breath) for a long enough amount of time, he or she would lose consciousness, and the body would resume breathing on its own. Because of this one cannot commit suicide with this method, unless one’s breathing was also restricted by something else (e.g. water, see drowning).

[CloneFive]

What do you propose occured to the subject?

[Great_Antibob]

What subject?

As I mentioned earlier, you have a 4th hand story.

If we accept the basic facts, a snorkeler was found unconscious and eventually died. And we have nothing, other than 4th hand accounts, that this snorkeler existed in the first place.

In old school computer speak: insufficient information to draw meaningful conclusion.

Given no other details, what’s the most reasonable guess? Snorkeling is not exactly a sedentary pursuit. People die snorkeling with regularity. So far, we have been given no evidence of anything other than a normal (though tragic) snorkeling accident.

There’s only something strange going on if we accept the other details, for which there is no documentation or direct evidence. Basically: when have evidence, come back.

[usedtobe]

Uh gang - the placebo effect is accepted.

Is it too hard to imagine that a placebo could be used in a harmful manner?

If I take a condemned prisoner into the clinic, strap him down, and then inject 3 different “drugs” - none of which are actually drugs, let alone the ones used for execution.
Will his brain interpret this as the fatal sequence and promptly die?

If we can convince a patient that a sugar pill will lower his blood pressure, and it does, what are the limits of that “power of suggestion”?

Interesting question.

[Melbourne]

@Telemark

The autonomous breathing reflex is pretty hard to overcome. You will breathe if unconscious so I can’t see how any conscious thought could override that.

The autonomous breathing reflex gradually disappear if the body is habituated to high carbon-dioxide blood levels.

In the mythical case referenced, if the patient is predicted to have poor lung function leading to death, then yes, following poor lung function they could be convinced to cease breathing and die.

I have always imagined that this is part of the reason why some old people can say – I’m going to die this evening – and then do. According to my imagined theory, a long period of poor respiration has habituated them to high carbon-dioxide blood levels, to the point where breathing requires deliberate action. You get tired of that, and then when you get tired, you just stop.

[Ferret_Herder]

@CloneFive

What do you propose occured to the subject?

Wait, are you actually questioning how it’s possible that a snorkeler might have been deprived of oxygen? :dubious:

[Isilder]

@Melbourne

The autonomous breathing reflex gradually disappear if the body is habituated to high carbon-dioxide blood levels.

And Dr Karl demonstrated live on TV that if one breathes an oxygen free gas,
then the breathing reflex doesn’t kick in because there is no carbon dioxide to trigger the reflex ! He thought he was just demonstrating cartoon character voice by breathing pure helium gas. But he wanted to make the one breath last a long time… When he was crashing to the floor, he realised that it was vital that he consciously forced himself to breath before passing out entirely…

[CloneFive]

Yes, I am inquiring why the person was deprived of oxygen.

[Great_Antibob]

@CloneFive

Yes, I am inquiring why the person was deprived of oxygen.

Seriously?

You are asking for plausible mechanisms for how a person who spend a some amount of time submerged in water engaged in moderate to heavy physical activity could be deprived of oxygen?

Even in a generous interpretation of this hypothetical, we’re not dealing with an all nitrogen environment or gradual acclimation to CO2. It’s a guy who went snorkeling.

Short of additional evidence, the most reasonable explanation is STILL a tragic snorkeling accident.

[Speaker_for_the_Dead]

@Springtime_for_Spacers

The mother of a mate of mine was got the same reassurance from her child’s doctor. Shortly afterward he managed to rupture his diaphragm from holding his breath :eek:

Not to be unkind, but that’s…practically impossible. Moreover, a 15-minute search of Medline, Google, and UptoDate shows no evidence of a diaphragm rupture ever occuring from a breath-holding spell. Maybe if the child had a seizure, or was kneed in the stomach. Or if s/he were driving a car and got into an accident. But not from holding his breath alone. There is, I guess, a slim chance of a pneumothorax, but that’s very different from a ruptured diaphragm.

[Ferret_Herder]

@Great_Antibob

Seriously?

You are asking for plausible mechanisms for how a person who spend a some amount of time submerged in water engaged in moderate to heavy physical activity could be deprived of oxygen?

Even in a generous interpretation of this hypothetical, we’re not dealing with an all nitrogen environment or gradual acclimation to CO2. It’s a guy who went snorkeling.

Short of additional evidence, the most reasonable explanation is STILL a tragic snorkeling accident.

Alternately, if you really must explain the supposed coincidence of it happening on the 5th anniversary of the diagnosis, then it could be suicide. If someone had been diagnosed with a terminal lung disease - and was foolhardy enough to do something as stressful on the lungs as snorkeling 5 years later - he may have instead thought it would be quick and easy to die of asphyxiation/drowning as a result. So go snorkeling alone in a lovely place on the 5th anniversary and end whatever suffering he might have been experiencing.