# Can a person born by Caesarean section be the US President? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 31, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-born-by-caesarean-section-be-the-us-president/515889 "2009-10-31T22:29:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Cleveland_Steamer)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-born-by-caesarean-section-be-the-us-president/515889/1 "2009-10-31T22:29:17Z")
It does not seem like the person would be a “natural born” citizen. Has this issue ever come up? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-born-by-caesarean-section-be-the-us-president/515889/2 "2009-10-31T22:30:46Z")
Why not, Caesar himself got to be Emperor. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-born-by-caesarean-section-be-the-us-president/515889/3 "2009-10-31T22:31:50Z")
Natural born refers to either the location(in the U.S.) or the citizenship of the parents, not the actual birth process. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-born-by-caesarean-section-be-the-us-president/515889/4 "2009-10-31T22:45:57Z")
It’s the MacBeth loophole. ---
**Author:** ![xash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c6cbf5/32.png) [@xash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xash)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-born-by-caesarean-section-be-the-us-president/515889/5 "2009-10-31T23:19:29Z")
As far as I’m aware, the term “natural born” as used in the constitution is not defined in the constitution. Further, no determination has been made in law as to the meaning of that term. Although it’s safe to say that the term does not refer to the method of birth - but rather the citizenship of the child at birth - the exact circumstances within which a new born child is considered “natural born citizen of the United States” is yet undetermined, and is open to challenge in the courts. There have been a few challenges in court regarding the eligibility of an individual to the office of President of the United States, but none of these cases were determined on the “natural born citizen” clause. So, while it is possible that someone could challenge a candidate that was born through Caesarean section on the grounds that they are not a “natural born citizen”, the courts will almost certainly rule in favor of the candidate. The term “natural born” could be challenged more effectively if, for instance, the candidate was born outside the US to one American parent and one non-American parent. There are clauses which refer to the American citizenship of the child, based on one parent’s American citizenship status, age and number of years resident in the US prior to the birth of the child outside of the US. Would this candidate then qualify as “natural born citizen of the United States”? This is undetermined, as far as I’m aware. The complication in Obama’s case was that at the time of birth, his father was a Kenyan citizen and his mother was an American citizen. However, just as America provides citizenship status to children born outside of the US to one American parent , so did Britain (at the time Kenya was ruled by the British, and therefore came under British law). Thus, through Barack’s father, Barack had a right to Kenyan citizenship. He never exercised this right, and at no point did he claim or file for Kenyan citizenship. But he was eligible to it at the time of birth. In the case of John McCain, some claim that he was a citizen of Panama at birth because he was not born in a US territory. There seems to be a lot of discrepancy regarding McCain’s exact place of birth, depending on the source. However, military bases outside the US are not US territory. Children born in military bases outside of the US get citizenship on the basis of their parents’ citizenship. Does this qualify as “natural born citizen” as per the constitution? This, too, is undetermined. If my assumptions or assertions are incorrect, please correct me. This is my understanding from all the reading I’ve done on this issue. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-born-by-caesarean-section-be-the-us-president/515889/6 "2009-10-31T23:50:41Z")
> [@xash](#): > > In the case of John McCain, some claim that he was a citizen of Panama at birth because he was not born in a US territory. There seems to be a lot of discrepancy regarding McCain’s exact place of birth, depending on the source. However, military bases outside the US are not US territory. Children born in military bases outside of the US get citizenship on the basis of their parents’ citizenship. Does this qualify as “natural born citizen” as per the constitution? This, too, is undetermined. McCain is certainly qualified for Panamanian citizenship, since Panama always regarded the US Canal Zone as part of its national territory. (This was actually addressed in a newspaper article here before the US election, for which they interviewed the ministry of foreign affairs.) Birth in the US Canal Zone did not confer in US citizenship; McCain’s US citizenship depends entirely on the citizenship of his parents, not on his place of birth. ---
**Author:** ![EdwardLost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bbe5ce/32.png) [@EdwardLost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EdwardLost)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-born-by-caesarean-section-be-the-us-president/515889/7 "2009-11-01T01:59:30Z")
Interesting point! Maybe not just a Cesarean birth, but any kind of induced birth or one involving anesthesia could exclude you from being president. Maybe if you are the product of in vitro fertilization you are not completely “natural born”. As soon as the birthers get Obama removed from office we’ll get them on this. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-born-by-caesarean-section-be-the-us-president/515889/8 "2009-11-01T02:08:59Z")
My impression is, if one is not a Birther or a Doper hot on the trail of a hypothetical situation, the term ‘natural born citizen’ is taken by most people who pay any attention to it to mean, “citizen by reason of one’s birth, whether by _ius soli_ or _ius sanguinis_, as opposed to someone obtaining citizenship by naturalization.” ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-born-by-caesarean-section-be-the-us-president/515889/9 "2009-11-01T02:19:56Z")
Oops. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-born-by-caesarean-section-be-the-us-president/515889/10 "2009-11-01T02:21:39Z")
> [@EdwardLost](#): > > Interesting point! Maybe not just a Cesarean birth, but any kind of induced birth or one involving anesthesia could exclude you from being president. Maybe if you are the product of in vitro fertilization you are not completely “natural born”. This is incorrect. “Natural” has more than one meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-born-by-caesarean-section-be-the-us-president/515889/11 "2009-11-01T03:41:51Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Why not, Caesar himself got to be Emperor. If you mean Julius Caesar, he was never emperor. Augustus Caesar was the first Emperor. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-born-by-caesarean-section-be-the-us-president/515889/12 "2009-11-01T03:56:20Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > McCain is certainly qualified for Panamanian citizenship, since Panama always regarded the US Canal Zone as part of its national territory. (This was actually addressed in a newspaper article here before the US election, for which they interviewed the ministry of foreign affairs.) Birth in the US Canal Zone did not confer in US citizenship; McCain’s US citizenship depends entirely on the citizenship of his parents, not on his place of birth. I am outraged that McCain has not given up his Panamanian citizenship. Let’s get Beck right on that. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-born-by-caesarean-section-be-the-us-president/515889/13 "2009-11-01T03:56:37Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > If you mean Julius Caesar, he was never emperor. Augustus Caesar was the first Emperor. Nor was either born by C-Section. Though it has been alleged ( and largely dismissed ) that one of J.C.'s ancestors may have been. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-born-by-caesarean-section-be-the-us-president/515889/14 "2009-11-01T04:07:30Z")
Not only that, but the fact that Julius’ mother lived for about 20 years after his birth proves that they didn’t cut her to get him out. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-born-by-caesarean-section-be-the-us-president/515889/15 "2009-11-01T05:19:16Z")
> [@xash](#): > > Although it’s safe to say that the term does not refer to the method of birth - but rather the citizenship of the child at birth - the exact circumstances within which a new born child is considered “natural born citizen of the United States” is yet undetermined. But then, there ARE various statutes that define specific cases in which people ARE “a citizen of the US by(at) birth”. So you rather mean that the set of possible circumstances that make for “natural born citizens” has not been determined exhaustively and completely. ---
**Author:** ![Randy\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee7513/32.png) [@Randy\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-born-by-caesarean-section-be-the-us-president/515889/16 "2009-11-01T07:10:10Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > But then, there ARE various statutes that define specific cases in which people ARE “a citizen of the US by(at) birth”. So you rather mean that the set of possible circumstances that make for “natural born citizens” has not been determined exhaustively and completely. Not to speak for **xash** but: No. There are only two ways to determine the actual meaning of a given term in the constitution: writing a new Amendment defining it, or getting a ruling on it from the Supreme Court. No SCOTUS has ever defined the term “natural born” in its constitutional context. There are many many cases defining who is/isn’t a citizen at birth, but none defining the term in II.1.5 dealing with birth requirements for presidents. While most sane people believe it to mean “a citizen of the US by/at birth,” there is no official pronouncement making it so. So theoretically, the issue is still open, and some wacky future SCOTUS could decide that you aren’t “natural born” unless you are born in a house with no electricity, with a physician in attendance who does not understand germ theory, and your parents are currently at war with the British. ---
**Author:** ![xash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c6cbf5/32.png) [@xash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xash)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-born-by-caesarean-section-be-the-us-president/515889/17 "2009-11-01T07:57:30Z")
> [@Randy\_Seltzer](#): > > Not to speak for **xash** but: No. There are only two ways to determine the actual meaning of a given term in the constitution: writing a new Amendment defining it, or getting a ruling on it from the Supreme Court. No SCOTUS has ever defined the term “natural born” in its constitutional context. There are many many cases defining who is/isn’t a citizen at birth, but none defining the term in II.1.5 dealing with birth requirements for presidents. While most sane people believe it to mean “a citizen of the US by/at birth,” there is no official pronouncement making it so. > > So theoretically, the issue is still open, and some wacky future SCOTUS could decide that you aren’t “natural born” unless you are born in a house with no electricity, with a physician in attendance who does not understand germ theory, and your parents are currently at war with the British. I hereby appoint **Randy Seltzer** my natural born spokesperson. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-born-by-caesarean-section-be-the-us-president/515889/18 "2009-11-01T13:06:57Z")
You may want to think twice on that. While **Randy** has a point, so does **JRD**. Congress does, of course, have the prerogative of writing laws granting or defining citizenshlp. Those naturalized as citizens became such under the terms and standards set forth in statute. And on accession of new land to the U.S., Congress has the power to grant or withhild citizenship or nationality status. What **JRD** referenced was the terms of a 1952 Congressional statute granting citizenship to Puertoriqueños retroactively to January 1941 – which meant that any inhabitant of that island born since the 1941 date became a natural born citizen. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-born-by-caesarean-section-be-the-us-president/515889/19 "2009-11-01T14:56:35Z")
> [@xash](#): > > The complication in Obama’s case was that at the time of birth, his father was a Kenyan citizen and his mother was an American citizen. However, just as America provides citizenship status to children born outside of the US to one American parent , so did Britain (at the time Kenya was ruled by the British, and therefore came under British law). Thus, through Barack’s father, Barack had a right to Kenyan citizenship. He never exercised this right, and at no point did he claim or file for Kenyan citizenship. But he was eligible to it at the time of birth. Just to add one comment on this issue, I asked about that last year, in this thread: [Is Barack Obama a Dual Citizen? US & UK/Kenyan?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=496404) \*\*bibliophage \*\* posted a link indicating that Obama was eligible to claim Kenyan citizenship, but since he didn’t do it by the time he was 21, he is no longer eligible. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-born-by-caesarean-section-be-the-us-president/515889/20 "2009-11-01T16:10:35Z")
There’s actually an interesting loophole in McCain’s case. At the time that McCain was born, a baby born in US territory was automatically a citizen, and a child born outside of US jurisdiction to American parents was a citizen, but neither actually applies to McCain, since he was born in a place that was subject to US jurisdiction but not part of US territory. The law was changed a few years later to retroactively declare children in McCain’s situation citizens, but then there’s the question of whether such a retroactive declaration is good enough for the Constitution’s requirements. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-born-by-caesarean-section-be-the-us-president/515889.md?page=2)