# Can a person claim, "unclaimed" media/artwork **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 16, 2018, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-claim-unclaimed-media-artwork/812481 "2018-04-16T03:09:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-claim-unclaimed-media-artwork/812481/21 "2018-04-18T09:16:41Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > You seemed to be asking - “if nobody else claims it but it’s not copyright expired, can you own it?” No, someone still owns it until the copyright expires. > > You can pretend to own it, or pretend it’s public domain (depending on how obvious the age is) and see if someone objects and sues you. If you’re lucky you get away with it. But… you can’t “claim” it. There are no squatters’ rights on intellectual property. Thanks to the paranoid MPAA and RIAA I think the USA has \*criminal \*copyright violation, so deliberately making money off someone else’s IP could get you in some situations into bigger trouble. A supplementary question - does calling out a potnetial copyright violation fall to the holder, or could I be a complete jerk and take matters into my own hands and get an injunction or police raid or something like that, if I see some douche taking liberties with the copyright of the Coca Cola Company, Disney or McDonalds, for example? Could this be my retirement job? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-claim-unclaimed-media-artwork/812481/22 "2018-04-18T12:03:03Z")
> [@Banksiaman](#): > > A supplementary question - does calling out a potnetial copyright violation fall to the holder, or could I be a complete jerk and take matters into my own hands and get an injunction or police raid or something like that, if I see some douche taking liberties with the copyright of the Coca Cola Company, Disney or McDonalds, for example? Could this be my retirement job? You need “standing” to file for an injunction so that one would fall on someone who is actually affected. (BTW, Coca Cola, McDonald’s and most of what people think of as “Disney” would be trademark matters, not copyright). Insofar as police raid, if you spot a shop selling bootleg products, or know for a fact someone’s selling fake Coke, you can certainly file a report with the appropriate authority. But the cops are unlikely to make it a priority to go after someone for a Calvin sticker in the car window. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-claim-unclaimed-media-artwork/812481/23 "2018-04-18T14:02:14Z")
> [@Banksiaman](#): > > A supplementary question - does calling out a potnetial copyright violation fall to the holder, or could I be a complete jerk and take matters into my own hands and get an injunction or police raid or something like that, if I see some douche taking liberties with the copyright of the Coca Cola Company, Disney or McDonalds, for example? Could this be my retirement job? No, the right to bring a civil action to enforce copyrights belongs to the owner of the copyrights. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-claim-unclaimed-media-artwork/812481/24 "2018-04-18T14:15:10Z")
Though, if you just want to make yourself a pain in the behind for a lot of people, the DMCA gives some tools that enable that. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-claim-unclaimed-media-artwork/812481/25 "2018-04-18T14:52:54Z")
NM ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-claim-unclaimed-media-artwork/812481/26 "2018-04-18T15:28:10Z")
> [@Banksiaman](#): > > A supplementary question - does calling out a potnetial copyright violation fall to the holder, Not only does it fall to the holder. but unlike trademark the law doesn’t require that the owner of the copyright do anything or be consistent in going after offenders. That’s what makes Creative Commons licenses possible. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-claim-unclaimed-media-artwork/812481/27 "2018-04-18T23:10:48Z")
So, can unclaimed intellectual property (such as a copyright) fall under state escheat laws? If the owner of a bank account cannot be located (or is too hard to locate) and the putative owner has has made no contact with the bank, the property can be taken by the state. Can the same apply to copyrights? ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-claim-unclaimed-media-artwork/812481/28 "2018-04-18T23:38:19Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > So, can unclaimed intellectual property (such as a copyright) fall under state escheat laws? > > If the owner of a bank account cannot be located (or is too hard to locate) and the putative owner has has made no contact with the bank, the property can be taken by the state. Can the same apply to copyrights? How? If you can prove who the owner is, the property is not “abandoned”. They own it, whether they exploit it or, say buy rights and then never publish. If you can’t find who is the owner it may simply be that your use of it has not been brought to their attention, not that they don’t know they own it. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-claim-unclaimed-media-artwork/812481/29 "2018-04-18T23:44:59Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > How? If you can prove who the owner is, the property is not “abandoned”. They own it, whether they exploit it or, say buy rights and then never publish. If you can’t find who is the owner it may simply be that your use of it has not been brought to their attention, not that they don’t know they own it. I was not questioning the mechanics or the practicality of doing so. And I get a notice every couple of years from a bank where I have a small account that my account is about to be turned over to the state. They obviously know who owns it (me or my heirs), but yet the state considers it “abandoned.” ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-claim-unclaimed-media-artwork/812481/30 "2018-04-19T00:24:30Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > I was not questioning the mechanics or the practicality of doing so. Legally, there is no way to do this. Copyright remains until the period expires. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-claim-unclaimed-media-artwork/812481/31 "2018-04-19T00:38:03Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Legally, there is no way to do this. Copyright remains until the period expires. Escheated property does not fall into the public domain either. It simply means that the state controls the property until a rightful owner comes forth and claims it. For example. if your investment account is escheated, most states will sell the stocks and bonds within it and. if the rightful owner comes forth, they will give him the cash (with no interest). They do not extinguish the shares of stock or forgive the debts. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-claim-unclaimed-media-artwork/812481/32 "2018-04-19T01:04:56Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > Escheated property does not fall into the public domain either. It simply means that the state controls the property until a rightful owner comes forth and claims it. Copyright does not parallel this in any way. The state can never control a copyrighted property. People keep trying to look for loopholes in copyright. There aren’t any. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-claim-unclaimed-media-artwork/812481/33 "2018-04-19T01:30:16Z")
By the way, the problem being discussed here is known as the problem of “orphaned works” or “orphan works.” A few years ago there was a push to have Congress amend the Copyright Act to set up rules that would allow for certain uses of orphaned works and what would happen if they suddenly became un-orphaned. This was of particular interest to academics, historians, educators, museums, libraries, preservationists, and archivists. Some progress was made but it was stalled by objections largely from independent photographers. Since then it seems that the major proponents of orphan works legislation have abandoned those efforts and have decided to rely on the Fair Use Doctrine to justify their unlicensed or unauthorized uses of orphaned works. This position was bolstered by Google’s victory in mass digitization of works for its Google Book Search service. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-claim-unclaimed-media-artwork/812481/34 "2018-04-19T01:49:22Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Copyright does not parallel this in any way. The state can never control a copyrighted property. Cite please? ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-claim-unclaimed-media-artwork/812481/35 "2018-04-19T03:44:16Z")
But my objection still stands - how would you identify an abandoned (“orphaned”) work? Just because you cannot find the owner does not mean the owner is unaware they have the copyright. Nor does the work become “orphan”. The only way to be sure is to ask them - the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle. For property, the owner is registered at lands title office (or whatever it is nowadays); they pay a property tax or forfeit their property. There is no such obligation with artwork or authored material. I have 130GB of photos I’ve taken, including several GB of scanned photos from before the internet. Some I’ve posted in various places - others may have taken and reposted them, I wouldn’t know and who’s going to tell me? I don’t have my name in the EXIF info, even if it wasn’t removed. Someone may have found a photo and reposted it, having no idea where it came from. Doesn’t mean I gave away my right to protect my property. Doesn’t mean they are orphaned. What about my dad’s photos? Actually, the best one I have is him at Stonehenge. My mother took that, so technically she owns copyright and her heir(s) until 2074. Do I own it? Does my brother own a share? Does my mom’s second husband technically own everything except the money she left us? Where does ownership go when he dies? (Somehow I don’t think he gives a flying toot about a picture of her first husband from 1948) It still doesn’t matter - someone owns the copyright, and if the photo was suddenly worth a million, you can bet your butt they’d be chasing the rights. If it’s worth zero, who cares. That’s the answer for case 1 - “who cares”? If it’s not making money, who cares? The orphan works problem surfaced especially with regard to video games. “Works for hire” produced for the ownership of a corporation - so many of those simply folder and ended business when the markets changed or the particular platform became obsolete. That perhaps is the best way to put the OP’s question… If a corporation or private company is wound up without properly accounting for some assets, what happens to those assets? What about in bankruptcy? Are there a bunch of banks that don’t know they own something? Another example is the widely circulated pic of the guy standing atop one of the WTC towers with the airliner headed toward him. (Photoshopped, of course) Someone owned that image, but nobody except the internet got rich from it. What if you’re Rick Astley and suddenly the internet makes you famous again… ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-claim-unclaimed-media-artwork/812481/36 "2018-04-19T04:01:41Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > Cite please? You’re asking me to prove a negative. All I can say is that there’s nothing in the Copyright Act that allows for it. If you say that’s just federal law, I can only rebut that copyright is federal: there is no such thing as state-granted copyright. No court case has ever given any government control over any copyrighted property. I’ve never heard of such a case coming to court. What meaning could one have? All references only to U.S. law, of course. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-claim-unclaimed-media-artwork/812481/37 "2018-04-19T04:27:31Z")
Well, of course, the government can own a copyright in the usual ways - by being the creator of the work concerned, or buy buying the copyright from a prior holder. And, presumably, in so far as the government can acquire property by escheat, by forfeiture, by seizure, etc, those laws don’t contain carve-outs which _exclude_ copyright from their scope. Does US federal copyright law create such carve-outs? Or have the courts recognised them? Didn’t OJ Simpson write a book, the copyright in which was divested from him by a state court, and vested in the family of Nicole Brown Simpson? ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-claim-unclaimed-media-artwork/812481/38 "2018-04-19T05:23:27Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > You’re asking me to prove a negative. All I can say is that there’s nothing in the Copyright Act that allows for it. If you say that’s just federal law, I can only rebut that copyright is federal: there is no such thing as state-granted copyright. No court case has ever given any government control over any copyrighted property. I’ve never heard of such a case coming to court. What meaning could one have? > > All references only to U.S. law, of course. You made a claim. You said that a state cannot control a copyright. You want people to believe your claim? Present evidence. The United States District Court for the Northern District of Georgia, Atlanta Division (a Federal Court) in the case of [Code Revision Commission and the State of Georgia v public.resource.org, Inc](https://law.resource.org/pub/us/code/ga/pro_v_georgia/gov.uscourts.gand.218354.44.0.pdf)held that the State of Georgia held a copyright on the annotated version of the Official Code of Georgia. > [@](#): > > The Copyright Act itself specifically lists “annotations” in the works entitled to copyright protection. 17 U.S.C. § 101. A long line of cases recognizes copyright protection for annotated cases and statutes. See, e^g, W.H. Anderson Co. V. Baldwin Law Pub. Co… 27 F.2d 82 (6th Cir. 1928); Lawrence v. Dana. 15 F. Cas. 26 (CCD. Mass. 1869). Moreover, the United States Copyright Office’s own treatise expressly recognizes the protectability of annotations. U.S. COPYRIGHT OFFICE, COMPENDIUM OF U.S. COPYRIGHT OFFICE PRACTICES §§ 313.6(C)(2), 717.1 (3d ed. 2014) (stating also that “[a] legal publication that analyzes, annotates, summarizes, or comments upon a legislative enactment, a judicial decision, an executive order, an administrative regulation, or other edicts of government may be registered as a non-dramatic literary work”). In fact, the Copyright Office has a long history of registering annotated statutes, such as Copyright Reg. AA000020419 for Vernon’s Annotated Statutes of the State of Texas and Copyright Reg. TX0008001813 for Annotated Statutes of New Mexico 2015 Advance Code Service. Defendant admits that annotations in an unofficial Code would be copyrightable [Doc. No. 17-4, p. 2] At least one federal court seems to think that the Copyright Act does not prohibit the states from owning copyrights. This federal court seems to think the State of Georgia has control over the copyright on the O.C.G.A. The opinion cites other cases where states have control over copyrights or have registered copyrights. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-claim-unclaimed-media-artwork/812481/39 "2018-04-19T05:43:29Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > But my objection still stands - how would you identify an abandoned (“orphaned”) work? Just because you cannot find the owner does not mean the owner is unaware they have the copyright. Nor does the work become “orphan”. The only way to be sure is to ask them - the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle. For property, the owner is registered at lands title office (or whatever it is nowadays); they pay a property tax or forfeit their property. There is no such obligation with artwork or authored material. I have 130GB of photos I’ve taken, including several GB of scanned photos from before the internet. Some I’ve posted in various places - others may have taken and reposted them, I wouldn’t know and who’s going to tell me? I don’t have my name in the EXIF info, even if it wasn’t removed. Someone may have found a photo and reposted it, having no idea where it came from. Doesn’t mean I gave away my right to protect my property. Doesn’t mean they are orphaned. Again, my question was not whether escheatment of intellectual property would be fair, good public policy, or easy to enforce. My question was whether it existed, unfair as it might be. I’m perfectly happy with my savings account safely earning 0.01% interest at the bank. The state can come along and take away my savings account from me. Their pretense is that it is safeguarding the property that I may be unaware of for me. Why not the same treatment for intellectual property? And, again I remind you, I am not asking if it is a good idea, I am asking about whether the law currently allows it. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-claim-unclaimed-media-artwork/812481/40 "2018-04-19T07:24:39Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > If you don’t hold the copyright, forget it and move on. Naw. It’s a benefit to society to distribute creative works when the creator is not in a position to object. I fully support abandonware distribution sites, for instance. If one is in possession of a copy of a creative work which is in danger of being lost to time, the only moral thing to do is to distribute it to others. This isn’t legal, of course, but there is also a sense of “if a tree falls in an empty forest” here. A copyright violation claim can only be enforced by the creator. If the creator is not around or doesn’t care… is it still illegal? Well, technically it is, but not in any practical sense. It is a similar problem to jury nullification. A law which cannot be enforced is not really a law. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-claim-unclaimed-media-artwork/812481.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-person-claim-unclaimed-media-artwork/812481.md?page=3)