# Can a Police Officer be a Pacifist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 7, 2010, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-police-officer-be-a-pacifist/552987 "2010-09-07T23:37:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-police-officer-be-a-pacifist/552987/21 "2010-09-08T21:00:57Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > > [@AK84](#): > > > > Armed policing is a very American and Irish concept. > > I saw armed cops in Germany, France, Italy, Mexico, Bahamas, and even Canada. These are just the few I can recall. I can remember the Roman traffic cops had what looked like machine guns when I visited years ago. :eek: For the record, the Dutch police force generally carries hand guns and cuffs. > [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > The meaning of pacifism has effectively been coopted by people who believe violence should _not_ be the very last option - people who consider it a show of strength, and believe that the readiness to use force is compromised without the willingness to do so. > > These people tend to be in powerful groups, because people who believe in violence also believe in, and acquire, power. So it shouldn’t be surprising that the meaning of pacifism has been tailored to their liking - no more so than the meaning of socialism or liberalism. I’ve read this twice now, and I can’t make sense of it. Please elaborate on both definitions. (The “right” one, and the “coopted” one). ---
**Author:** ![Hold\_Fast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58f4c7/32.png) [@Hold\_Fast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hold_Fast)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-police-officer-be-a-pacifist/552987/22 "2010-09-08T21:24:06Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > > [@pkbites](#): > > > > Define “many”. > > > > I can think of England, New Zealand, and a handful of university police in the U.S.. But even in those examples there are firearms available for some situations. > > > > I can find few police forces that aren’t armed. > > All South Asian police forces are usually unarmed, Constables are issued weapons only in special circumstances. > > Armed policing is a very American and Irish concept. Actually, armed policing is a very **policing** concept–at least according to the Romans, who invented the concept of policing. Hundreds of years afterwords Armed policing has been the name of the policing game until modern times when most nations have decided freedom to bear arms wasn’t their thing–2nd ammendment arguments aside, police officers having no lethal weapons is a very very new idea. As to whether you friend can be a pacifist in the fuzz, at least if he works in the U.S, its quite a hazaard to both himself and the citizens he would be serving. Killing certainly is not a good thing, but in that sort of work, its most defintely nessecary. If I’m hanging at school and one of my classmates decides to go off capping people out of some personal revenge crusade, I can honestly say I wouldn’t want your friend showing up to help out. He is welcome to his beliefs, but I know if I were you I would suggest a different line of work for your bud. And that doesn’t mean the military. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-police-officer-be-a-pacifist/552987/23 "2010-09-08T22:25:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Actually, armed policing is a very policing concept–at least according to the Romans, who invented the concept of policing. You mean the Romans who didn’t allow anyone at all to be armed within the city? ---
**Author:** ![Hold\_Fast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58f4c7/32.png) [@Hold\_Fast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hold_Fast)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-police-officer-be-a-pacifist/552987/24 "2010-09-08T23:43:36Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Actually, armed policing is a very policing concept–at least according to the Romans, who invented the concept of policing. > > You mean the Romans who didn’t allow anyone at all to be armed within the city? No actually, I’ve never heard of **those** Romans. They sound like good-natured people though. The Romans I know didn’t allow any Roman military armies into the city–moreso because of the power-hungry generals that might have been behind them. But these Romans’ heavy duty riot-shock troops, the Urban Cohort..key word urban… or perhaps if you wish the lesser street policing Vigiles, at least to MY knowledge, wouldnt be running around with some lead whackers. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-police-officer-be-a-pacifist/552987/25 "2010-09-09T04:33:37Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > No, a true pacifist would be opposed to killing someone with a baton or their fists. Don’t redefine the word into meaninglessness. Pacifist/pacifism defined: [The Free Dictionary](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pacifist) 1. The belief that disputes between nations should and can be settled peacefully. 2. a. Opposition to war **or violence** as a means of resolving disputes. b. Such opposition demonstrated by refusal to participate in military action. [Merriam-Webster](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pacifist?show=0&t=1284006452) 1 : of, relating to, or characteristic of pacifism or pacifists 2 : strongly and actively \*\*opposed to conflict \*\*and especially war [url=[http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pacifism](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pacifism)][Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) 1. opposition to war\*\* or violence of any kind.\*\* 2. refusal to engage in military activity because of one’s principles or beliefs. 3. the principle or policy that all differences among nations should be adjusted without recourse to war. Nowhere can I find a definition that only mentions killing. Striking someone with a fist, knee, or baton, IS an act of violence. How was I redefining the word? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-police-officer-be-a-pacifist/552987/26 "2010-09-09T07:55:20Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Armed policing is a very American and Irish concept. Huh? The Irish police force is unarmed, and has been since the foundation of the state. (Members of the detective branch - non-uniformed - are issued with firearms. But the uniformed force goes unarmed, except when responding to an incident involving firearms.) ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-police-officer-be-a-pacifist/552987/27 "2010-09-09T08:37:41Z")
Sorry, yes the Garda in the Republic is unarmed, but I was thinking about the old Royal Irish Constabulary. Should have been clearer. Police in Germany and France and Holland that I saw were all unarmed. Not in Italy. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-police-officer-be-a-pacifist/552987/28 "2010-09-09T08:43:03Z")
Yes, a police officer can be a pacifist. But they couldn’t be a beat cop in America, I don’t think. My take on pacifism - no intentional violence. But I’m personally OK with restraining/grappling. Also Aikido-type redirected force with intent to not hurt the attacker. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-police-officer-be-a-pacifist/552987/29 "2010-09-09T10:41:59Z")
> [@Hold\_Fast](#): > > As to whether you friend can be a pacifist in the fuzz, at least if he works in the U.S, its quite a hazaard to both himself and the citizens he would be serving. Killing certainly is not a good thing, but in that sort of work, its most defintely nessecary. If I’m hanging at school and one of my classmates decides to go off capping people out of some personal revenge crusade, I can honestly say I wouldn’t want your friend showing up to help out. > > He is welcome to his beliefs, but I know if I were you I would suggest a different line of work for your bud. > > And that doesn’t mean the military. This is pretty much my view on the matter, by putting on the uniform you are effectively declaring that you are willing and able to use force, including lethal force, in the defence of yourself or others if it is necessary. I liked the sheep/wolves/sheepdogs analogy I came across in a book one time, the sheep are people who can’t and won’t use force to defend themselves or others, the wolves are the people who enjoy violence and have no qualms in using it, the sheepdogs are the people who are capable and willing to use force but only in the defence of themselves and others. In other words my friend is a sheep selling himself as a sheepdog, that doesn’t make him a bad person but does raise questions as to his suitability for the job. btw to the person who stated that armed policing is an Irish concept the Garda in the Republic of Ireland are unarmed while the officers of the PSNI in Northern Ireland are armed to the teeth due to the historical situation in that part of the world. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-police-officer-be-a-pacifist/552987/30 "2010-09-09T17:23:34Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Police in Germany and France and Holland that I saw were all unarmed. Not in Italy. The police I saw in Germany & France clearly had some kind of handgun as a sidearm. I don’t recall seeing sidearms on the uniformed officers in India, but I wasn’t looking for it. I was there on business and the Indian dignitary agents (plain clothed) that we contracted with were armed. They were off duty law enforcement of some type. They carried .32 cal revolvers that were breech loaders. And they wore them on lanyards hanging from their neck, concealing the weapon with their shirts. I do not know if that is the kind of weapon they carried when they did their law enforcement job. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-police-officer-be-a-pacifist/552987/31 "2010-09-09T18:25:19Z")
It was quite a shock to this American to see European police officers carrying submachine guns. To me it seemed third-worldish and incongruous. When they ask my opinion about what sort of equipment their officers should carry, I’ll be sure to let them know. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-police-officer-be-a-pacifist/552987/32 "2010-09-10T15:54:36Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > It was quite a shock to this American to see European police officers carrying submachine guns. To me it seemed third-worldish and incongruous. I’m not sure, but I’d guess a lot of it springs from the terrorism of the 60s & 70s. Black September and the like. Also remember many of those countries had (or still have) active rebellions or separatist groups, like ETA, etc. Hell, Italy as a country is only 150 years old (or 90 if you like) and still has active autonomy movements in several regions. Look, it’s not \*so \*long since Spain, Italy and Greece \*were \*seen as Third World by their Nordic Neighbours. It’s an attitude that persisted into the 60s, AFAICT. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-police-officer-be-a-pacifist/552987/33 "2010-09-10T16:41:10Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > > [@AK84](#): > > > > Police in Germany and France and Holland that I saw were all unarmed. Not in Italy. > > I don’t recall seeing sidearms on the uniformed officers in India, but I wasn’t looking for it. I was there on business and the Indian dignitary agents (plain clothed) that we contracted with were armed. They were off duty law enforcement of some type. Police all over the former British India were usually unarmed, arms were issued as and when required and usually there was an armed contingent for really heavy action. The Indians in Kashmir and later the Pakistanis in the Frontier found that police were lambs to the slaughter against heavily armed insurgents. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-police-officer-be-a-pacifist/552987/34 "2010-09-10T22:07:14Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Sorry, yes the Garda in the Republic is unarmed, but I was thinking about the old Royal Irish Constabulary. Should have been clearer. > > Police in Germany and France and Holland that I saw were all unarmed. Not in Italy. German police officers almost invariably carry a pistol, and usually have a MP5 in the patrol car’s trunk. The [last statististics in the German Wikipedia article](http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffengebrauch_der_Polizei_in_Deutschland#Statistik_f.C3.BCr_2004), for 2004, say that in 2004 they killed 9 persons and 5,769 animals, and shot at property in 12 instances. Regarding the OP’s question, it depends on what kind of pacifism is meant. There are and were people (e.g. a lot of 19th century European pacifists) who self-identify as pacifists and are OK with defending oneself and others when attacked. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-police-officer-be-a-pacifist/552987.md?page=1)