# Can a President over rule the Constitution with an Executive Order **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 30, 2018, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725 "2018-10-30T14:42:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/61 "2018-10-30T19:28:52Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I hope you just didn’t call me a racist. Did you? > Do I really need to explain why you are completely wrong here? > > The more stuff you get by being a citizen, the more people want to be a citizen. Then you have to make the choice of giving less to everybody, or limiting who can be a citizen, or trying to give it to everybody who wants it. If you were correct, then there would be some sort of relationship “between the size of a country’s social safety net as a percentage of GDP and whether they have jus soli citizenship”. **Richard Parker** is asserting that there is no such relationship. Thus your explanation does not match the facts, assuming he is correct. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/62 "2018-10-30T19:30:44Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > My guess is that the person posting it was really just saying that Europe which is supposedly a liberal paradise is not jus soli, so why should we be. He was just using ‘industrialized’ as code for ‘predominantly white wealthy countries.’ Yes, I forgot how the Saudis and the rest of the Middle East are so generous with their immigration policies. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/63 "2018-10-30T19:35:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If you were correct, then there would be some sort of relationship “between the size of a country’s social safety net as a percentage of GDP and whether they have jus soli citizenship”. **Richard Parker** is asserting that there is no such relationship. Thus your explanation does not match the facts, assuming he is correct. No. There is no need to put a percent of GDP qualifier on it. The attractiveness of the safety net is the operative quality. Whether or not the country can actually pay for it, or if it will bankrupt them is irrelevant. But he’s not right even as he states it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/64 "2018-10-30T19:36:58Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I hope you just didn’t call me a racist. Did you? Seriously? Are you really going to suggest that nobody can even **mention** the possibility of racial resentment, even in those incredibly oblique terms, without running afoul of the rules? That’s bonkers, Scylla. And no, I’m not calling you clinically insane, I’m just saying that your argument is bonkers. > [@Scylla](#): > > The more stuff you get by being a citizen, the more people want to be a citizen. Then you have to make the choice of giving less to everybody, or limiting who can be a citizen, or trying to give it to everybody who wants it. Huh? That’s suggesting that citizenship is a one-way street, that we all line up at the trough come meal-time and eat what the government in its beneficence produces from its magical slop-chute. In reality, of course, immigrants add to the “stuff you get by being a citizen” by contributing the “stuff you contribute by being a citizen.” They pay taxes, and especially pay taxes when you make it easy for them to be documented. At least, that’s true for the material “stuff you get by being a citizen” like roads. For the non-material “stuff you get by being a citizen,” like free speech and anti-discrimination laws, the cool thing about them is that they’re not finite. It costs not a single extra penny to give free speech to every extra immigrant who enters the country, and I lose not one iota of my own free speech rights when a new person moves here. It’s a crazeballs idea. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/65 "2018-10-30T19:42:04Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Unfortunately. > > That’s the way it actually works. I disagree. Adults generally follow laws and social norms for reasons other than fearing punishment. For example, see how many people will obey a stop sign in the middle of the night in a deserted area. Yes, it may not be 100%, but it sure is a lot. To the extent that people cannot be expected to follow the law unless they are smacked on the hand for violating it, then we aren’t really a society. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/66 "2018-10-30T19:43:04Z")
Support for the “Welfare magnet” > **[NDP\_36\_12.pdf](https://www.norface-migration.org/publ_uploads/NDP_36_12.pdf)** > > 1052.66 KB ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/67 "2018-10-30T19:43:29Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > No. There is no need to put a percent of GDP qualifier on it. The attractiveness of the safety net is the operative quality. Whether or not the country can actually pay for it, or if it will bankrupt them is irrelevant. > > But he’s not right even as he states it. So, are you saying that you don’t believe the US was industrialized until the early 30’s? Because either you are saying that, despite the US being one of the major industrial powers even at that time, or that you are shifting the definition around. The US had very minimal social safety nets or social programs prior to that. By that definition, China isn’t industrialized either, as, contrary to what seems to be popular belief, China doesn’t have a whole bunch of social programs for the majority of it’s citizens. Mexico has the same per capita GDP as China and arguably a better social program system for a larger majority than China does. I don’t know about Brazil, but I’d guess even in the mess they are in their’s would be comparable to China. I’m trying to understand where you are coming from, as it doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense unless you ARE talking about ‘industrialized’ to mean 1st world western nation. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/68 "2018-10-30T19:43:47Z")
> [@](#): > > I disagree. Adults generally follow laws and social norms for reasons other than fearing punishment. For example, see how many people will obey a stop sign in the middle of the night in a deserted area. Yes, it may not be 100%, but it sure is a lot. > > To the extent that people cannot be expected to follow the law unless they are smacked on the hand for violating it, then we aren’t really a society Sorry, but if there was no punishment for bank robbery, I would be trying to rob banks until I had enough money to retire. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/69 "2018-10-30T19:45:10Z")
If this went to the SCOTUS and the rules in favor of it, does it mean they just invalidated the Legislative and Judicial Branch, as they just set a precedent that an executive order supersedes the Constitution? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/70 "2018-10-30T19:45:55Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > The more stuff you get by being a citizen, the more people want to be a citizen. Then you have to make the choice of giving less to everybody, or limiting who can be a citizen, or trying to give it to everybody who wants it. Cite that people’s immigration decisions are primarily based on comparing social safety nets for citizens? AFAICT, people choose immigration destinations based mostly on economic opportunity, freedom to express their religious/political views, and practical considerations such as existing ties to other immigrants, especially family members. I hope it doesn’t need pointing out that nobody who attains citizenship by virtue of _jus soli_ actually **chose** to be a citizen of that particular country. Your argument rests on the supposition that non-citizens disproportionately seek to immigrate to _jus soli_ countries so that their hypothetical future children will automatically get citizenship benefits. I’m not persuaded that that factor outweighs the other issues mentioned above. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/71 "2018-10-30T19:46:33Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Not so much. Huh? ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/72 "2018-10-30T19:46:49Z")
Dance dopers, dance! ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/73 "2018-10-30T19:47:42Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Sure. He can also sign one making red blue. > > The question is what can he make stick. That’s just silly. Any such order Trump signs would be to turn blue into red. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/74 "2018-10-30T19:48:18Z")
Can somebody explain how this would work in practice? Would hospitals have to start checking the citizenship of people before filing the birth certificate? Hospitals are not subject to following Executive Orders, as far as I know. Why would they? How does it work in other countries where birth doesn’t grant you citizenship? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/75 "2018-10-30T19:50:17Z")
10 most generous welfare countries. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/76 "2018-10-30T19:51:11Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Support for the “Welfare magnet” > > [http://www.norface-migration.org/publ\_uploads/NDP\_36\_12.pdf](http://www.norface-migration.org/publ_uploads/NDP_36_12.pdf) Doesn’t say anything about _jus soli_ status there. So even if immigrants are more attracted to certain countries for the practical reason that social support systems are better there, that doesn’t mean that _jus soli_ citizenship is itself a significant attraction. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/77 "2018-10-30T19:51:45Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > That’s just silly. Any such order Trump signs would be to turn blue into red. You win the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/78 "2018-10-30T19:52:15Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > 10 most generous welfare countries. 😕 Was this supposed to be a link? [This link](https://247wallst.com/special-report/2016/11/30/countries-with-the-most-generous-welfare-programs/2/), for example? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/79 "2018-10-30T19:53:21Z")
I feel like I’m on the flat earth message board again. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/80 "2018-10-30T19:55:07Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > 😕 Was this supposed to be a link? Yes. You probably couldn’t see it due to your leftis bias.🤪 > **[Countries With the Most Generous Welfare Programs](https://247wallst.com/special-report/2016/11/30/countries-with-the-most-generous-welfare-programs/)** > > Public social spending has remained at approximately 21% of GDP on average since 2009 across 34 member nations of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. Public spending in the United States amounts to 19.3% of the U.S. economy,... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725.md?page=5)