# Can a President over rule the Constitution with an Executive Order **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 30, 2018, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725 "2018-10-30T14:42:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/81 "2018-10-30T19:58:09Z")
Kids who were born on American soil didn’t come here so they could get that sweet sweet welfare money. They didn’t come here at all. They were born here. They didn’t choose anything. So making them non-citizens helps, how? As for the idea that if we don’t make these people citizens we’ll stop the demographic shift that will eventually lead to whites being less than 50% of the population, how does making these people non-citizens help? They’re already here. We’d have to actually kick them out of the country if we wanted a whiter country. Excluding them permanently from citizenship just creates a permanent underclass of non-citizens. Your parents came here as non-citizens. You were born, but since your parents weren’t citizens you’re not a citizen. And when your children will be born, since you’re not a citizen, they won’t be citizens either. Again, we have to actually cleanse the country of these people if we want to make America whiter, making them non-citizens makes the citizenry of the country whiter but it doesn’t make the population whiter. And if the problem is impoverished Guatemalans and Mexicans sneaking into the country and then giving birth to future welfare recipients, well, why exactly do you think these guys are sneaking into the country? To get welfare? They can’t get welfare, they’re illegal aliens. To get welfare for their kids? How do they sign their kids up for welfare if they’re illegal aliens? To wait until their kids are 18, then tell the kids to sign up for welfare? If the complaint is that these kids are going to schools and driving on roads paid for by american taxes, do you think only citizens are allowed to go to public schools or drive on roads? If the problem is that we need to deport these parasites, and we can’t do that if they’re citizens, then why is it that we can’t seem to deport their parasitical illegal alien parents? If we can’t seem to round up their swarthy parents and send them back where they came from, when are we gong to get around to deporting the kids back to Mexico, where they’ve never been? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/82 "2018-10-30T19:58:36Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I feel like I’m on the flat earth message board again. Sorry to hear it. If your hallucinations persist, you should maybe consider consulting a doctor about them. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/83 "2018-10-30T20:01:57Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Yes. […] > > [https://www.google.com/amp/s/247wallst.com/special-report/2016/11/30/countries-with-the-most-generous-welfare-programs/amp/](https://www.google.com/amp/s/247wallst.com/special-report/2016/11/30/countries-with-the-most-generous-welfare-programs/amp/) [Thought so.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21294997&postcount=78) ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/84 "2018-10-30T20:02:41Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Sorry, but if there was no punishment for bank robbery, I would be trying to rob banks until I had enough money to retire. That’s possibly the saddest thing I’ve ever heard. What other awful things would you do if only they weren’t illegal? Even sadder, I suspect this is how Trump thinks too. And he’s been put in a position where he plausibly has the power to make his whims legal. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/85 "2018-10-30T20:04:24Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > [Thought so.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21294997&postcount=78) Bastions of lax immigration one and all. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/86 "2018-10-30T20:04:53Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Note: I _do not_ support this argument, but apparently the argument that Trump’s advisors are trying to use is as follows. > > The 14th Amendment says (in part) “All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.” > > The argument (which I do not share) is that illegal immigrants (as opposed to legal immigrants, legal visitors, etc) are not “subject to the jurisdiction of the US” and therefore their kids are not eligible to automatically be considered citizens. If they’re not subject to the jurisdiction thereof, that means that the courts can’t rule on them and cops can’t arrest them. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/87 "2018-10-30T20:05:08Z")
> [@Llama\_Llogophile](#): > > That’s possibly the saddest thing I’ve ever heard. What other awful things would you do if only they weren’t illegal? > > Even sadder, I suspect this is how Trump thinks too. And he’s been put in a position where he plausibly has the power to make his whims legal. I don’t consider that awful. And that would be the only thing. Except maybe buy and use lawn darts. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/88 "2018-10-30T20:09:00Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I disagree. Adults generally follow laws and social norms for reasons other than fearing punishment That might be the wrongest thing ever said. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/89 "2018-10-30T20:12:40Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I feel like I’m on the flat earth message board again. I feel the same way when I read your posts. As to your boogeyman about “immigrants come here to get welfare,” you seem to be missing the factual matter that the migrants in the news appear not to be coming here for economic reasons, but to see asylum from violence in their home countries. This is easily shown by the fact that the apprehensions that have been in the news have been generally voluntary: the migrants want to get into the United States, surrender to authorities, and then apply for asylum, as opposed to slinking over the border unnoticed and getting rich on illegally-obtained food stamps. If people can’t even distinguish between “they are coming to pick our fields, oh noes!” and “they are running for their lives!” then I suggest that such persons have no place in this conversation. (I include the President among those who deserve to be excluded from this topic.) ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/90 "2018-10-30T20:13:51Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I hope you just didn’t call me a racist. Did you? You said: “It’s not my argument, but the argument is that…” I was saying that the argument you outline, the one that is not your argument, is an argument that is really about racial resentment with some post hoc efforts to map it onto some kind of economic difference between countries. You keep shifting this argument that is not yours, so I’m not sure what you’re claiming any more. I am sure that all versions of it fail on two facts: (1) immigrants improve our economy; and (2) the historical reasons for different citizenship rules are largely about the history of colonization of the western hemisphere and not about economic development, as born out by any effort to test your theories with actual data about countries that isn’t cherry-picked. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/91 "2018-10-30T20:14:23Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > If they’re not subject to the jurisdiction thereof, that means that the courts can’t rule on them and cops can’t arrest them. I wonder if the Sovereign Citizen types might pick up on this? “No, officer, you can’t arrest me, because my parents were illegal aliens. I am therefore not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, and I refuse to create joinder by…Hey! Ow! _OW!_” > [@Chingon](#): > > Dance dopers, dance! What the fuck does this mean? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/92 "2018-10-30T20:14:49Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > That might be the wrongest thing ever said. Once again, I suggest you learn something about the topics you speak of in this thread. Not only on the question of why people obey laws (hint: it’s for more reasons than just fearing punishment) and why migrants are coming to the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/93 "2018-10-30T20:18:02Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Bastions of lax immigration one and all. Not one of those ten countries has unrestricted _jus soli_ citizenship. So what exactly is the argument you’re trying to make about _jus soli_ citizenship? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/94 "2018-10-30T20:20:09Z")
_Most_ adults follow laws and social norms for reasons other than fearing punishment. Some, however, do not, and those few are, in fact, limited in their actions only insofar as others limit them. And unfortunately, one such individual is currently serving as the President of the United States. As to how the Supreme Court might contort the plain reading of the text, remember that Kavanaugh once ruled that immigrants who work for somebody don’t count as “employees”, and are therefore not subject to any of the laws protecting the rights of employees. I wouldn’t put it past him to rule that “persons” in the 14th Amendment means “citizens”, and that it therefore just says “Only citizens are citizens”. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/95 "2018-10-30T20:20:36Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I feel the same way when I read your posts. > > As to your boogeyman about “immigrants come here to get welfare,” You put that in quotes as if I said that. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/96 "2018-10-30T20:21:52Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > _Most_ adults follow laws and social norms for reasons other than fearing punishment. Such as? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/97 "2018-10-30T20:28:29Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Such as? For one, they believe that the laws have moral legitimacy. An example of the principle is a man considering whether to cheat on his wife. He has high confidence that he could have a dalliance every now and then with zero chance that his wife would find out. But, he believes it is morally wrong to do so. This person may choose not to cheat on his wife not because he fears divorce, but because he doesn’t want to do something wrong. Of course, this man’s best friend may not be cut out of the same cloth. The friend may have no qualms whatsoever about breaking a promise to his wife, but he does fear divorce. Perhaps he thinks he just can’t get away with it. And for this reason, this degenerate might not cheat on his wife. Sadly, the friend in this scenario probably believes that everyone is like him, such that the only reason that any man wouldn’t cheat on his wife is for fear of getting caught. There are of course other reasons why people generally follow laws and social norms, but this is just one example. > [@](#): > > You put that in quotes as if I said that. I put it in quotes to express a concept. Please don’t take punctuation as an insult. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/98 "2018-10-30T20:34:56Z")
> [@Clu-Me-In](#): > > [Donald Trump says he will overrule the 14th with an Executive order.](https://youtu.be/H355oS-c_3A) Absolutely 100% no. The constitution would be totally worthless if all it took to nullify something it explicitly and unambiguously says (“All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States”) was an executive order from a president. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/99 "2018-10-30T20:35:04Z")
I’m not convinced it does overrule the Constitution Bingham never wrote “and subject to the jurisdiction thereof.” with illegal immigrants in mind. It was only extended to all people born in the US in the _Wong Kim Ark_ case … or was it. It was very clearly established that Ark’s parents were legal residents of California at the time as part of the ruling and although not citizens they, by nature of their residency, were in the country legally. I submit it is still an open question if parents without legal residence can have children be natural-born citizens. Also, there are many problems with the actual decision as written. \*Ii is interesting that Justice Gray pointed out the verbiage of the amendment was well understood by the Framers of the Constitution considering they had no part in writing the amendment. \*It relies heavily on British common law as if this amendement were written early in our country’s history (see above) \*It makes flat-out errors of fact > [@](#): > > That all children born within the dominion of the United States of foreign parents holding no diplomatic office became citizens at the time of their birth does not appear to have been contested or doubted until more than fifty years after the adoption of the Constitution, when the matter was elaborately argued in the Court of Chancery of New York and decided upon full consideration by Vice Chancellor Sandford in favor of their citizenship. Lynch v. Clark, (1844) 1 Sandf.Ch. 583. Ummm … children of slaves? Dred Scott anyone? \*He quotes Kent which would imply that under the 14th Amendment anyone born in a conquered part of the US during war would NOT be an NBC. Any children born in occupied territory during WWII? Sorry, you’re Japanese. \*He relies on the Slaughterhouse Cases. Yes, one of the worst decisions in SCOTUS history formed a basis of this ruling. \*In multiple places it discusses that the parents “are domiciled” in the US. What does it mean to “be domiciled” [note passive tense]. Legally here? Of course. Illegally here? I don’t know. Just crossed the border 5 minutes ago? Nope. But for me, here is the one line from the decision that says Kim does NOT apply to children of illegal immigrants. > [@](#): > > Chinese persons, born out of the United States, remaining subjects of the Emperor of China, and not having become citizens of the United States, are entitled to the protection of, and owe allegiance to, the United States _so long as they are permitted by the United States to reside here_, and are " subject to the jurisdiction thereof" in the same sense as all other aliens residing in the United States. > emphasis added The United States does not “permit” illegal immigrants to reside here. They can be deported. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725/100 "2018-10-30T20:35:04Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I put it in quotes to express a concept. Are your feelings hurt by punctuation? No but your sloppiness is distressing. It seemed to suggest that you were attributing that concept to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-president-over-rule-the-constitution-with-an-executive-order/823725.md?page=6)