# Can a public school teacher call his/her students any name they wish? (actual court case) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2022, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998 "2022-03-14T00:40:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/221 "2022-03-16T19:50:32Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > Ah, if you’re specifically talking about that, then I agree. As an aside, the “traditional” rule–using “he” when a single person’s gender isn’t known–is a really stupid rule in some cases. We know, for example, that Madonna, George Michael, and Debbie Gibson each had his greatest success during the eighties, but damn does that “his” sound awkward. Folks who insist on “traditional” rules need to be aware of how grim they sometimes are, and how mellifluous an alternative like “their” can be. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/222 "2022-03-16T20:02:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > > > Ah, if you’re specifically talking about that, then I agree. > > As an aside, the “traditional” rule–using “he” when a single person’s gender isn’t known–is a really stupid rule in some cases. I’ve always hated that one, too. Most style guides now recommend rearranging the sentence to avoid having to use it. Failing that, they recommend using he or she. I hope that using they will become the preferred method before too long. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/223 "2022-03-16T20:02:29Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > We know, for example, that Madonna, George Michael, and Debbie Gibson each had his greatest success during the eighties Those are known genders, so you would rewrite the sentence since English has no singular gender neutral third person pronoun. To my ears “to each their own” still sounds wrong, and I’m a young dude. ~Max _ninja’d_ ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/224 "2022-03-16T20:19:40Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Those are known genders, so you would rewrite the sentence since English has no singular gender neutral third person pronoun. No, that’s not the rule. The traditional rule is, to quote [The Elements of Style](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/37134/37134-h/37134-h.htm#Page_33), > [@](#): > > **They.** A common inaccuracy is the use of the plural pronoun when the antecedent is a distributive expression such as _each_ , _each one_ , _everybody_ , _every one_ , _many a man_ , which, though implying more than one person, requires the pronoun to be in the singular. Similar to this, but with even less justification, is the use of the plural pronoun with the antecedent _anybody_ , _any one_ , _somebody_ , _some one_ , the intention being either to avoid the awkward “he or she,” or to avoid committing oneself to either. Some bashful speakers even say, “A friend of mine told me that they, etc.” > > Use _he_ with all the above words, unless the antecedent is or must be feminine. The sentence as I wrote it follows the traditional rule ( when referring to a single member of a mixed-gender group, use “he”) exactly. If it sounds dumb, that’s my point: the traditional rule leads to awful results. If following a traditional rule is so clunky that you need to rewrite the sentence to avoid the rule’s implications, maybe ditch the rule. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/225 "2022-03-16T20:24:24Z")
It’s right there, “unless the antecedent is or must be feminine”. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/226 "2022-03-16T20:28:21Z")
And the antecedent in @Left_Hand_of_Dorkness 's sentence isn’t or mustn’t be female, because his list included George Michael. By the old rule, so long as there was even one male in his list, the pronoun had to be “he”, not “she” or “they”. EDIT: The old rule would, at least, have allowed “she” if the list had consisted of Madonna, Debbie Gibson, and Cindi Lauper. Because in that case, even without knowing which specific one was meant, the antecedent must be female. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/227 "2022-03-16T20:29:22Z")
Not meaning to junior mod, and I’m as guilty as anyone, but maybe we could take this aside to another thread? [Here](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496) or [here](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327), maybe? ETA: Ohhhh… I just junior modded a mod! ---
**Author:** ![california\_jobcase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@california\_jobcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/california_jobcase)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/228 "2022-03-16T20:38:13Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Thou wouldst give them a foolish and-dare I say it?–archaic response, methinks. Dost thou remember that “you” was once [plural](https://www.etymonline.com/word/you)? Archaic? Oh, is 1980 archaic now? If I had used “they” as a singular pronoun on a theme in English 102, a letter grade would have been deducted. We’re not talking 1575 here. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/229 "2022-03-16T20:50:40Z")
> [@california\_jobcase](#): > > Archaic? Oh, is 1980 archaic now? Yes, it is. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/230 "2022-03-16T20:56:52Z")
My _Elements of Style_ in the same section reads, > Consider these strategies to avoid an awkward overuse of _he_ or _she_ or an unintentional > emphasis on the masculine: > > Use the plural rather than the singular > > | The writer must address his readers' concerns. | Writers must address their readers' concerns. | > > Eliminate the pronoun altogether. > > | The writer must address his readers' concerns. | Writers must address readers' concerns. | > > Substitute the second person for the third person. > > | The writer must address his readers' concerns. | As a writer, you must address your readers' concerns. | > > No one need fear to use _he_ if common sense supports it. If you think _she_ is a handy > substitute for _he_, try it and see what happens. Alternatively, put all controversial nouns in > the plural and avoid the choice of sex altogether, although you may find your prose > sounding general and diffuse as a result. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/231 "2022-03-16T21:02:36Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > My _Elements of Style_ in the same section reads… When was yours published? The one **LHoD** linked to was from 1920. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/232 "2022-03-16T21:04:15Z")
'99, 4th edition. In other words, it’s archaic. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/233 "2022-03-16T21:05:56Z")
Right, so do you understand how your cite isn’t relevant to the discussion now? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/234 "2022-03-16T21:08:54Z")
We were talking about someone who retired from teaching _this month_. Probably not someone who has been teaching the 1920 standard. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/235 "2022-03-16T21:20:46Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > I hope it’s not quite the same thing. A lot of the people who came out of the closet in the 80s were forced out by Reagan’s AIDS holocaust. While Reagan certainly didn’t do anything to HELP the AIDS crisis, I think it was going to happen whoever was president, and whatever the politicians did. Yes, it might have been less, but it would still have been a BFD. But I agree with your sentiment – Yes, to a large degree, AIDS forced gay men out of the closet. They suddenly had giant purple marks on their face, for instance. Trans people seem to be coming out of the closet for less horrible reasons. And I hope it stays that way. I REALLY REALLY hope that. But the result of gays coming out of the closet was that we recognized there are more gay people than we used to think there were, and society made many reasonable accommodations for gay people. And gay people now enjoy nearly the same level of mental health as straight people, where back in the days of the closet, they suffered inordinate rates of suicide and depression. I hope that trans people can similarly find reasonable accommodations and better mental health. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/236 "2022-03-16T21:32:34Z")
Agreed. The rate of suicide among transgender kids is just stupid-high. We need to fix that, especially those of us who remember the 80s. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/237 "2022-03-16T21:34:49Z")
Good lord, man. I was pointing out the traditional rule, _which has changed_. Showing me that the traditional rule has changed doesn’t exactly address what I said. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/238 "2022-03-16T21:36:22Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > doesn’t exactly address what I said. It EXACTLY addresses what you said – it perfectly proves your point. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/239 "2022-03-16T21:43:05Z")
> [@california\_jobcase](#): > > Archaic? Oh, is 1980 archaic now? If I had used “they” as a singular pronoun on a theme in English 102, a letter grade would have been deducted. We’re not talking 1575 here. If you would say, “Funny, you don’t look plural” to someone today, based on what would have happened 42 years ago, yeah, that’s an archaic response–analogous to the archaic objection to the singular “you”. Your use of one singular pronoun (which used to be plural) to object to a different singular pronoun (which used to be plural) was just a tasty bit of irony, that’s all. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/240 "2022-03-16T21:49:51Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Good lord, man. I was pointing out the traditional rule, _which has changed_ . Showing me that the traditional rule has changed doesn’t exactly address what I said. I may have misunderstood you, and I apologize. When you mention the traditional rule I assumed you meant before _they_ became acceptable (in style manuals) as a singular pronoun. Which would have been this past decade. ~Max [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998.md?page=13)