# Can a public school teacher call his/her students any name they wish? (actual court case) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2022, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998 "2022-03-14T00:40:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2022, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/281 "2022-04-15T21:38:47Z")
When I was at law school, there were five guys named Peter in our year. Since there were five different courses in 1st year they were normally divided, but by the scheduling gods’ work, there was one class where they were all in attendance. It confused the prof. She had trouble keeping them all straight. Naturally, they gradually realised this and one day all five sat front and centre in front of her podium, and they all raised their hand when she asked questions during her lecture, which confused her further. Finally, she said, “I’m sorry I’m having trouble keeping you straight today. I’ve never seen so many Peters in a row.” That was pretty much the end of that class that day. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2022, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/282 "2022-04-18T16:17:42Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Reminds me of the year when my debate team had 3 Kristins, a Kristen, a Kirsten and a Christine. _I went to school with 27 Jennifers_ _16 Jenns, 10 Jennies, and then there was her._ -Mike Doughty, “27 Jennifers” ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2022, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/283 "2022-04-18T21:31:45Z")
I got a Popular Link badge when I posted this in another thread: [Classic one panel cartoon about kids names from 1980.](https://www.cartoonstock.com/cartoonview.asp?catref=CC41842) Popular names come and go. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2022, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/284 "2022-04-19T01:48:50Z")
It seems that the courts may be leaning to say a teacher cannot be forced to used preferred pronouns in violation of religious belief. Here is the story [on a similar case](https://nypost.com/2022/04/18/professor-wins-400k-lawsuit-against-university-over-pronouns/) in a college setting. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2022, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/285 "2022-04-19T07:47:37Z")
I am against this ruling. I cannot imagine a limiting principle here. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2022, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/286 "2022-04-19T19:16:01Z")
There are some tricky balances here. On the one hand, addressing someone by a name, word, or phrase that E doesn’t want to be addressed by might be harrassing or some other kind of damaging behavior. On the other hand, the government should not force an individual to speak words that the individual doesn’t want to say. Some kind of compromise would seem to be the only solution. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2022, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/287 "2022-04-19T19:18:10Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > On the other hand, the government should not force an individual to speak words that the individual doesn’t want to say. As teachers aren’t conscripted I don’t see any conflict at all. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2022, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/288 "2022-04-19T19:20:35Z")
If the professor can’t be punished for disrespecting a student, surely it would be equally illegal for a student to be punished for disrespecting a professor. So, if a student elected to respond to every question from this professor with, “Go fuck yourself,” it should now be illegal to reduce their grade as a result. ---
**Author:** ![Mallard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Mallard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mallard)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2022, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/289 "2022-04-19T19:25:13Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > > [@eburacum45](#): > > > > in 1971 it was standard practice in the UK to call kids (especially boys) by their surnames - this avoids all the ‘preferences’ and uncertainties such as ‘Harry’ for Henry or Harold, ‘Larry’ for Lawrence or Laurence, and so on. > > Plus it avoids the confusion that arises when about 90% of your students have one of the same seven first names David, Paul, Andrew, Mark, John, Michael and Stephen. 😛 > > Seriously, I bet pretty much every teacher in a UK boys’ school in 1971 had at least three cases of first-name duplication in each of his classes. Surnames were doubtless way less duplicated than given names. I’m sure that’s why a number of my teachers went by last names. Sure removes all the “preferred” and nickname BS students may want. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2022, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/290 "2022-04-19T19:49:33Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So, if a student elected to respond to every question from this professor with, “Go fuck yourself,” it should now be illegal to reduce their grade as a result. I think there’s a (at least legally) significant difference between: “You _can’t_ say X to A (for x, y, and z reasons).” and “You _must_ say Y to B.” The law can prohibit you from being actively abusive, but the law can’t force you to say something you don’t want to say. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2022, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/291 "2022-04-19T19:54:21Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > “You _must_ say Y to B.” …if you want this job. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2022, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/292 "2022-04-19T19:54:33Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > “You _must_ say Y to B.” So, McDonalds can’t fire me if I refuse to say, “Welcome to McDonalds, may I take your order?” ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2022, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/293 "2022-04-19T19:56:49Z")
See, I think we’ll have a problem when there’s a transgender _teacher_ and the student - who must attend school and must follow school rules - is forced to call her “Mrs. X”. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2022, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/294 "2022-04-19T20:01:19Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I think there’s a (at least legally) significant difference between: > > “You _can’t_ say X to A (for x, y, and z reasons).” Ok…so write a law that says you (general “you”) cannot call a given person by any name other than the one they want to be addressed by. You do not have to say that word, but you can’t say any other word either when referencing that person. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2022, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/295 "2022-04-19T21:15:44Z")
Wouldn’t that be their name? If a student thinks that a male teacher is effeminate, may they call them by female pronouns and titles? If they think that a female teacher is masculine, may they call them be male pronouns and titles? Is calling Mrs. Campbell “Mr. Campbell” acceptable since she’s got a faint bit of hair on her upper lip? If not, then I don’t see where you think we’ll have a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2022, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/296 "2022-04-19T21:34:31Z")
The state can’t compel children to salute the flag, so I can’t say how it would go if they tried to force children to address a transgender woman as a woman. But as far as I can tell the state can force its own employees to say or do anything rationally related to their duties. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2022, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/297 "2022-04-20T01:29:17Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > On the other hand, the government should not force an individual to speak words that the individual doesn’t want to say. But this is a government employee whose speech they can control when it is during work hours. > [@Miller](#): > > If the professor can’t be punished for disrespecting a student, surely it would be equally illegal for a student to be punished for disrespecting a professor. I disagree. Students and teachers are not social peers. > [@Miller](#): > > So, McDonalds can’t fire me if I refuse to say, “Welcome to McDonalds, may I take your order?” I agree. If part of your job duties are to teach students and the district has determined that: 1) students are to be treated with respect, and 2) that we support transgender students’ rights to be called by preferred pronouns, then that just became part of the job description. > [@Max\_S](#): > > The state can’t compel children to salute the flag, so I can’t say how it would go if they tried to force children to address a transgender woman as a woman. But it is undisputed that the state can punish the children for being disrespectful or calling the teacher a motherfucker. The flag salute question brings up an interesting one that courts don’t want to wade into which is how we define religious beliefs and what level of granularity that we allow. The flag case was easier because you have a major religion that does not believe in saluting the flag. But other case law says I can essentially be a religion of one and testing my sincerity can be difficult. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2022, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/298 "2022-04-20T01:36:48Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I agree. If part of your job duties are to teach students and the district has determined that: 1) students are to be treated with respect, and 2) that we support transgender students’ rights to be called by preferred pronouns, then that just became part of the job description. Is the flip side of this [Florida’s “Don’t Say Gay” bill?](https://www.npr.org/2022/03/28/1089221657/dont-say-gay-florida-desantis) The state can tell the teacher what they can (or cannot) say? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2022, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/299 "2022-04-20T02:10:34Z")
I think so, yes. If the State of Florida says no discussion of LGBTQ issues in K-3, then that is IMHO well within the power of a state to prescribe the curriculum and conduct within the schools. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2022, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/300 "2022-04-20T02:40:53Z")
AFAICT the verbiage does not specify LGBT or anything like that, but rather sexual orientation and gender identity. Straight and cis are off limits to discuss, apparently. No more talking about mommy and daddy, then. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998.md?page=16)