# Can a public school teacher call his/her students any name they wish? (actual court case) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2022, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998 "2022-03-14T00:40:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2022, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/41 "2022-03-14T14:53:56Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Aside from the bigoted case that brought this on, there should not be the expectation that a teacher refer to a student by a name that changes frequently. A teacher dealing with 100+ students has enough to do without having to remember that Hunter is going by Westly and Quinn is going by Sawyer until next week when they pick different names. Most mature people won’t pick different names every week, but some students will just because they think it’s funny or they want to cause trouble. If a student knows that a teacher can be disciplined for not using their name-of-the-day, some students will use different names expressly for the purpose of getting the teacher in trouble for not using it. If a student wants to be referred to as a different name there should be some official process, such as a parent making that change, rather than just a casual request. My wife, who is a university lecturer, has a student who has changed names and preferred pronouns multiple times over the course of the student’s academic program. She finds it a bit annoying but tries to be accommodating because supporting her students (within reason) _is her fucking job_. I mean, I doubt she’d be disciplined for honestly getting it wrong occasionally, but she certainly would if she was actively being a jerk about it like the teacher in the OP was. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2022, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/42 "2022-03-14T15:26:10Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > About 10% of my students this year have requested to be called by pronouns different from those they were assigned at birth (in most cases, “they”). A minority, to be sure, but I don’t think I’d call 10% “minuscule”, and it’s a lot larger than the number who’d do things like changing names every week just to be a nuisance. I have no question that 10% of your students say such things. And they aren’t going to change next week. But I highly doubt anywhere near the 10% are going to end up as adults with - apologies for using what may be an inappropriate term - nontraditional gender identification issues. Kids say/do all manner of things, which do not necessarily reflect lifelong orientations/preferences/behaviors. I’m not interested in shaming/humiliating/whatever kids who are “different” - so long as their difference does not harm the learning environment. And my understanding is that their classmates are likely less concerned with such differences than I might be. But I’m also not sure how much of a burden I am willing to impose on the classroom teacher to accommodate such developmental/passing phases. When I said minuscule percentage - what percentage of adults do you understand to identify themselves as a gender other than associated with their birth genitalia? My assumption was that it is FR less than 10%. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2022, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/43 "2022-03-14T15:27:50Z")
Does seem like it should have been an admin issue. School management negotiating with the teacher to find a uniform procedure that fits within her religious boundary. Like using all surnames with ‘Jones’ minimus and ‘Jones’ maximus, based on age, for siblings. Looks like Kansas is a place where both sides want a fight. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2022, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/44 "2022-03-14T15:30:28Z")
One other thing. My wife teaches at a community college. She is happy to call her students whatever they wish. She does object, however, to the fact that ALL staff are expected to identify their “pronouns” in various settings, just because a small (1-10%) percentage of students appreciate that. Not at all a big deal, but just one minor irritant added to an already long list of bureaucratic irritants. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2022, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/45 "2022-03-14T15:37:09Z")
Someone with lexical authority should create gender neutral pronouns and enter them into the English vocabulary. Or, we could adopt the convention of adding silent letters to alter gender in pronouns. Kinda like la chatte in French. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2022, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/46 "2022-03-14T15:38:21Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > About 10% of my students this year have requested to be called by pronouns different from those they were assigned at birth (in most cases, “they”). A minority, to be sure, but I don’t think I’d call 10% “minuscule”, and it’s a lot larger than the number who’d do things like changing names every week just to be a nuisance. > > I have no question that 10% of your students say such things. And they aren’t going to change next week. But I highly doubt anywhere near the 10% are going to end up as adults with - apologies for using what may be an inappropriate term - nontraditional gender identification issues. > > Kids say/do all manner of things, which do not necessarily reflect lifelong orientations/preferences/behaviors. I’m not interested in shaming/humiliating/whatever kids who are “different” - so long as their difference does not harm the learning environment. And my understanding is that their classmates are likely less concerned with such differences than I might be. But I’m also not sure how much of a burden I am willing to impose on the classroom teacher to accommodate such developmental/passing phases. > > When I said minuscule percentage - what percentage of adults do you understand to identify themselves as a gender other than associated with their birth genitalia? My assumption was that it is FR less than 10%. Is there a certain percentage for you when being concerned about a minorities kicks in? 10%, then sure it’s fine to protect the minority, but if it’s just one or two percent, then no worries, the kid should toughen up? And what kind of a “burden” is it to require teachers not to repeatedly misgender a student? Is it really that tough? ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2022, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/47 "2022-03-14T15:40:11Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Someone with lexical authority should create gender neutral pronouns and enter them into the English vocabulary. That’s already happened. We have they and we have the neo-pronouns. They is rapidly gaining near universal acceptance. The neos likely never will. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2022, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/48 "2022-03-14T15:49:15Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > we have the neo-pronouns Thanks - great solution. I’ll try them out in some posts. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2022, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/49 "2022-03-14T15:50:08Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Is there a certain percentage for you when being concerned about a minorities kicks in? 10%, then sure it’s fine to protect the minority, but if it’s just one or two percent, then no worries, the kid should toughen up? There probably is - but then it’s a good thing I’m not writing policy. 😉 It periodically impresses me when an issue that affects a very small percentage of people seems to get a disproportionately large amount of press. Let’s take your approach to the extreme, and require accommodations at the individual level. It really sucks if you have some idiosyncrasy that is shared by few others. I wish all such people to be as happy as possible, and as free from governmental oppression as possible. But, on the flip side, I’m dubious as to the amount society as a whole ought to be expected to adjust to accommodate their preferences. Pronoun preferences of grade/middle school aged kids is awfully far down on my personal list of concerns. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2022, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/50 "2022-03-14T16:04:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The teacher in question is a bigoted asshole. How on earth she is smart enough to teach math I can’t imagine. Not all bigots are stupid and once again, the mantle of religion is used for their purpose. I’d love it if the Muslim students (both of them) demand she wear a burka because the sight of her bare face demeans _their_ religion. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2022, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/51 "2022-03-14T16:16:53Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > It periodically impresses me when an issue that affects a very small percentage of people seems to get a disproportionately large amount of press. I’d guess that 90-95% of the time, pronoun preference is handled quite easily, with the kid expressing a preference and the teacher agreeing to it. No worries, no problem, no press. Why this is news isn’t because the kid has a pronoun preference, it’s because the teacher is climbing up on the cross and playing martyr rather than being a kind, thoughtful human being. It is also news because this is but one facet of the right wing’s attack against transgendered students. The right wing has made its bones selling victimhood to whites and pandering to the hatred of “the other”. Their current culture war against transgendered kids is just the next step in their long march of discrimination, from race, sex, religion, sexual orientation, they’ve now moved to gender identity. That’s why it’s news. > [@Dinsdale](#): > > Let’s take your approach to the extreme, and require accommodations at the individual level. I really don’t think “don’t be an asshole to a kid” is an “accommodation”. > [@Dinsdale](#): > > Pronoun preferences of grade/middle school aged kids is awfully far down on my personal list of concerns. Not your ox being gored, I guess. This transgendered hate is much more a thing for me because this effects someone I love dearly, so maybe I’m over-sensitive. But I really don’t see the “don’t be an asshole to children” pronoun preference policy as a huge burden whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2022, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/52 "2022-03-14T16:19:42Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > If the parents and/or school admin feel strongly that the kid should be called Jane, couldn’t they change the kid’s registration records to reflect that? Even assuming the parents are accepting of their child’s gender identity, wouldn’t this require a legal name change? That costs a lot of money and time that the parents may not necessarily have. Cite: My sister, who has come out as non-binary (but still uses she/her pronouns), and wants to change her name but can’t because she works a minimum-wage job. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2022, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/53 "2022-03-14T16:22:07Z")
ETA: Response to @Dinsdale withdrawn. I’ll find a more constructive way of saying what I want to say. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2022, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/54 "2022-03-14T16:25:21Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Although I disagree with the teacher and don’t think a teacher can use ANY name, the question is _legally_ can a teacher use the student’s legal name over the student’s objection? If I have a student who wants to be called Jonny but I call them Jonathan do they have a cause for action? IANAL but I don’t think it’s the student who’s the issue. The school issued this policy. So is telling employees how they address people something an employer can do? I’d say yes. I don’t feel there is any recognized religious exemption to this. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2022, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/55 "2022-03-14T16:30:18Z")
What happens if a student claims that it is his religious belief that all women are subordinate to men and therefore all female teachers must address him as Sir while he will refer to them as Woman? ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2022, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/56 "2022-03-14T16:37:13Z")
Not to use the slippery slope argument, but what happens when a student decides it’s his moral obligation under the Bible to stone a girl for premarital sex? From my research paper for English 111 from Paul D. Camp Community College back in 2014, about a year before all these anti-transgender laws really started blowing up across the country: > It is saddening that many Christians try to use the Word of God to deny freedom to their fellow citizens. If they must rely on the Bible, they should consider Jesus’ message of love. Jesus ate with tax collectors and prostitutes, people considered the lowest of the low. He refused to condemn a woman accused of adultery, saying, “Let any of you who is without sin, be the first to throw a stone at her.” (John 8:7). And most importantly, “God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him” (John 3:17). Using the Bible to condemn a group of people, and attempt to deny them equal rights, goes against everything Jesus taught, and everything Christians claim to believe in. > Furthermore, for those who insist on clinging to their dogmatic views of right and wrong, it could be argued that religious liberty is the last cry of the desperate. Because someone’s religious beliefs are whatever that person says they are, it is impossible to enact protections against everyone’s religious freedoms in absolutely every circumstance. > > –“Living It Every Day: Righting Society’s Wrongs Against Transgender People”, by (name redacted) April 17, 2014 ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2022, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/57 "2022-03-14T16:38:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > What happens if a student claims that it is his religious belief that all women are subordinate to men and therefore all female teachers must address him as Sir while he will refer to them as Woman? We would almost certainly say that, the First Amendment notwithstanding, a public school has the ability to regulate/restrict speech by students that would disrupt the orderly operation/discipline of the school. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2022, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/58 "2022-03-14T16:44:10Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > I think it’s generally accepted that, under the current law, a school would be required to make accommodations to its dress code for religious garb or grooming practices. But this is the teacher that’s suing, not the pupil or their parent. I realize forcing someone to remove their kippah or headscarf would be about as fundamental to freedom of religion as it gets in a modern democracy. But this would like a _teacher_ suing because a school allowed head scarfs. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2022, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/59 "2022-03-14T16:44:44Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > A teacher dealing with 100+ students has enough to do without having to remember that Hunter is going by Westly and Quinn is going by Sawyer until next week when they pick different names. Most mature people won’t pick different names every week, but some students will just because they think it’s funny or they want to cause trouble. > > If a student wants to be referred to as a different name there should be some official process, such as a parent making that change, rather than just a casual request. Agreed. Although I’m not sure that a parent’s input is necessarily required. A possible solution to this is to make the alternate name process slightly more cumbersome, possibly requiring the student to file a form and maybe limiting things to one intra-academic year change per year. In general, it’s going to be very hard to determine who is the bad actor in marginal cases, so a hardline policy like this is never going to be perfect, but it might be workable. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2022, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/60 "2022-03-14T17:00:18Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > If a student wants to be referred to as a different name there should be some official process, such as a parent making that change, rather than just a casual request. Lord, that would be annoying. For _every_ class? I go by my nickname, which is a perfectly normal last name, instead of my given name, which I hate. My parents only called me by my given name when they were upset with me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998.md?page=4)