# Can a public school teacher call his/her students any name they wish? (actual court case) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2022, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998 "2022-03-14T00:40:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/161 "2022-03-15T15:55:25Z")
Missed edit window: But Kansas does have laws protecting that teacher’s religious rights. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/162 "2022-03-15T18:11:49Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > There have not, historically, been tons of kids changing their name every week. I see no reason why this problem would suddenly emerge. This seems like a “rates vs levels” disagreement. I agree that historically the rate of name-changes per child has been incredibly low. The current rate of increase, however, is quite high. Possibly that will abate and remain at reasonably low levels, or maybe not. Obviously it’s not a pressing problem at the moment and it also may never be. But, like, continue the last decade’s trend and it probably would be before long. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/163 "2022-03-15T18:18:31Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > The current rate of increase, however, is quite high. cite? I’d guess that historically more than 10% of students tell the teacher their name is something other than their official records. Samantha is called Sam, Jonathan is called John, Frederick is called Henry, and so on. The current estimates are that less than 1% of people are trans. I really don’t think that calling a trans kid by their chosen name materially increases the number of “non official names” a teacher needs to keep track of. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/164 "2022-03-15T18:37:52Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I’d guess that historically more than 10% of students tell the teacher their name is something other than their official records. Samantha is called Sam, Jonathan is called John, Frederick is called Henry, and so on. Just from a name perspective, it’s much easier to remember someone is called by a standard nickname of their full name rather than a completely different name. Even if Elizabeth prefers Elizabeth, she’ll get called Liz all the time because people to say the short version. If Elizabeth told her teacher she prefers Elizabeth, that’s easier to remember than if she prefers to be called something completely different like Sawyer. I’ve had people at work change their first names and I find it a challenge to remember. When I see them, there’s a bit of panic as I try to recall their new name. This makes it harder to remember their new name. it doesn’t come naturally. I think of their name as being something like “Janenowgoesbywendy”. I certainly want people to be called by their preferred names and pronouns, but I don’t think it’s something that everyone finds easy to do. If 10% of my coworkers have non-standard pronouns that change, names that change, etc., it’s going to be complicated for me to interact with them simply because I have trouble remembering when those identity aspects change. The first impressions are the concrete impressions I have in my brain. Changes are something globbed on and I have to remember the modification to the base state. If this is my office mate who I interact with all the time, no problem. But if it’s a handful of students I see in a class of 30 for an hour out of the 100+ students I see in a day, I’m going to struggle to remember their new preference. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/165 "2022-03-15T18:50:32Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Just from a name perspective, it’s much easier to remember someone is called by a standard nickname of their full name rather than a completely different name. Even if Elizabeth prefers Elizabeth, she’ll get called Liz all the time because people to say the short version. If Elizabeth told her teacher she prefers Elizabeth, that’s easier to remember than if she prefers to be called something completely different like Sawyer. Eh…not really seeing that. People get other people’s names wrong all the time. A quick correction usually sorts it with no fuss. Person 1: “Hi George.” Person 2: “Hi, but my name is actually Steve.” Person 1:“Oh, sorry about that. Nice to meet you Steve.” Not to mention remembering that John = Jack, Robert = Bob, William = Bill, Henry = Hank, Elizabeth = Betty and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/166 "2022-03-15T18:55:19Z")
As a teacher, this really isn’t a big deal. I have kids change names all the time–and I have co-workers who change names all the time. When Ms. Jones gets married and changes her name to Ms. Franklin, nobody is like “OH NOES I CAN’T REMEMBER THAT”–nor do people freak out when she gets divorced and changes her name back to Ms. Jones. When a kid wants to be called by a nickname, or wants to be not called by a nickname, good teachers adjust. When the student I knew as Bill wants me to call them William, I’m not going to fuss. If they ask to be called Willa instead, on what grounds do I object? No matter how hard I look, I can’t find a vagina in the name Willa, nor does it have xx chromosomes. I have no basis to declare the name female, unless I believe that what’s female is culturally determined. And if I believe that, then I have no business overruling someone’s cultural determination. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/167 "2022-03-15T18:58:27Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Not to mention remembering that John = Jack You will never get me to understand that one. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/168 "2022-03-15T19:00:11Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > If 10% of my coworkers have non-standard pronouns that change, names that change, etc., it’s going to be complicated for me to interact with them simply because I have trouble remembering when those identity aspects change. Oh, I agree. I’m really bad with names. But 1. it’s an essential part of being a teacher to deal with names. I teach one small class, and I confess I struggle with this. But I know it’s part of my job. 2. in the vast majority of cases, the teacher doesn’t need to cope with a change. Typically, the student tells the teacher their preferred name on the first day of class. That’s certainly been my experience with trans kids in my class. (And I have a lot, because my class has become popular with the trans community on campus.) I don’t find it any harder to remember that this kid with a male name on her record goes by “Julie” than to remember that that other kid with a long name goes by “JP”. I mean, I have trouble remembering that the kid whose legal name is “George” goes by “George”, but the trans kids don’t really add significantly to my name-learning burden, because I get all the information at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/169 "2022-03-15T19:25:25Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You will never get me to understand that one. [Challenge accepted:](https://dmnes.wordpress.com/2017/01/28/why-is-jack-a-nickname-of-john/) Latin “Johannes” → Old French “Jehan” → Germanic “Jan”, plus English diminutive suffix “-kin” = “Jankin” → “Jackin” → “Jack”. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/170 "2022-03-15T19:33:57Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But I believe there is a different standard between religious beliefs and religious practices. I want to point out that the constitution in the U.S. protects the free _exercise_ of religion, which is substantially more than merely holding religious _beliefs_. I just don’t believe requiring a person to violate their religious beliefs as a condition of _voluntary_ employment qualifies as restricting the free exercise of religion. So long as there is a rational basis for the policy (which there is) it trumps the teacher’s interest. If we were talking about students who are prevented from taking time for _salat_ (daily prayers), or who are forced to pledge allegiance to the flag &etc, that would be different, because students are forced to attend school. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/171 "2022-03-15T19:52:20Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Although I disagree with the teacher and don’t think a teacher can use ANY name, the question is _legally_ can a teacher use the student’s legal name over the student’s objection? If I have a student who wants to be called Jonny but I call them Jonathan do they have a cause for action? I don’t think the student has a legal cause of action against an individual teacher who calls them by their enrolled / last name. The students in this case are ~~legally~~ entitled to be called by their preferred names, due to the grace of the school administrators and their policies. ~Max _Edited for clariy._ ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/172 "2022-03-15T19:57:02Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > The students in this case are legally entitled to be called by her preferred name, due to the grace of the school administrators and their policies. When a school board make a policy is it a legal requirement? By which I mean is it just an employer who says you need to comport yourself in a certain way or get fired? Or, is it that the teachers much legally follow those rules or face legal repercussions? (really asking) ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/173 "2022-03-15T20:01:47Z")
When my little brother started school he was able to print his name, “Larry”. The teacher reprimanded him, saying that was his nickname, Lawrence was the name he should write on papers. Our mom came to school and told the teacher her son’s birth certificate had the name “Larry” on it. The teacher said it would need to be changed. Eventually the principal intervened and my brother could use his name. He also was switched to a different home room because the original teacher refused to cooperate. I assume she is dead now, and maybe that’s for the best. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/174 "2022-03-15T20:02:04Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > By which I mean is it just an employer who says you need to comport yourself in a certain way or get fired? This ~Max ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/175 "2022-03-15T20:11:47Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > When my little brother started school he was able to print his name, “Larry”. The teacher reprimanded him, saying that was his nickname, Lawrence was the name he should write on papers. > > Our mom came to school and told the teacher her son’s birth certificate had the name “Larry” on it. The teacher said it would need to be changed. > > Eventually the principal intervened and my brother could use his name. He also was switched to a different home room because the original teacher refused to cooperate. What the hell is wrong with people? Clearly, that teacher had a bug up her ass. The teacher wanted the _birth certificate_ to be changed? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/176 "2022-03-15T20:13:08Z")
I think the teacher would argue propriety was on her side. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/177 "2022-03-15T20:16:13Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > [Kansas (where the teacher in the OP is), and at least 20 other states](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Religious_Freedom_Restoration_Acts), has its own Religious Freedom Restoration Act in state law. Per your CNN cite, “Ricard filed a federal lawsuit against the Geary County Schools Unified School District on Monday.” The cited state law, Kan. Stat. § 60-5301 _et seq_, requires the govt to provide clear & convincing evidence a policy is narrowly tailored for a compelling govt interest. But I don’t think that is relevant in a federal lawsuit, is it? Unless she already lost a state court case, which I think CNN would have mentioned. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![JohnGalt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johngalt/32/184_2.png) [@JohnGalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnGalt)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/178 "2022-03-15T21:36:52Z")
This sounds like my sister’s story, but substitute Larry/Lawrence with Patty/Patricia. Yes teacher, her real name is Patty. Don’t write Patricia on her perfect attendance certificate because you think that’s what it should be. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/179 "2022-03-15T23:44:20Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I want to point out that the constitution in the U.S. protects the free _exercise_ of religion, which is substantially more than merely holding religious _beliefs_ . I think it’s the other way around. The constitutional right of holding religious beliefs is absolute while the constitutional right to exercise your religion is limited. So your right of religious belief is substantially more than your right of religious exercise. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998/180 "2022-03-15T23:48:20Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > > [@kayaker](#): > > > > When my little brother started school he was able to print his name, “Larry”. The teacher reprimanded him, saying that was his nickname, Lawrence was the name he should write on papers. > > > > Our mom came to school and told the teacher her son’s birth certificate had the name “Larry” on it. The teacher said it would need to be changed. > > > > Eventually the principal intervened and my brother could use his name. He also was switched to a different home room because the original teacher refused to cooperate. > > What the hell is wrong with people? Clearly, that teacher had a bug up her ass. The teacher wanted the _birth certificate_ to be changed? Well, now I know which classroom I want Elon Musk and Grimes to send their kids to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-public-school-teacher-call-his-her-students-any-name-they-wish-actual-court-case/960998.md?page=10)