# Can a rabbi be stripped of his title? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 7, 2009, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-rabbi-be-stripped-of-his-title/505648 "2009-08-07T15:51:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-rabbi-be-stripped-of-his-title/505648/1 "2009-08-07T15:51:46Z")
I’m thinking of those in New Jersey who were accused of various crimes. Will they be “defrocked”, for lack of a better word? Is there some sort of formal ceremony? ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-rabbi-be-stripped-of-his-title/505648/2 "2009-08-07T16:14:35Z")
I asked a Rabbi Eliezer Gurkow on [askmoses.com](http://askmoses.com): [QUOTE=askmoses live chat] MewsesCat : Can rabbis be kicked out of the rabbinate the same way priests can be defrocked? Rabbi Eliezer G : Welcome to the Rabbi’s one on one chat room, how can I help you today? MewsesCat : Someone wants to know if the rabbis involved in the scandal in New Jersey can be unrabbi’d. Rabbi Eliezer G : after a fashion - yes Rabbi Eliezer G : they can be rejected from their positions Rabbi Eliezer G : and effectively not hired ever again MewsesCat : But there’s no official kicking-out ceremony or anything? Rabbi Eliezer G : no MewsesCat : Thanks. [/quote] ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-rabbi-be-stripped-of-his-title/505648/3 "2009-08-07T16:49:45Z")
“Rabbi” is essentially an academic degree. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-rabbi-be-stripped-of-his-title/505648/4 "2009-08-07T17:51:54Z")
Yes, it’s not a priesthood, as in Anglican or Roman Catholic Christianity. You can’t ‘defrock’ a rabbi. The most that could be done is that he loses the particular position he holds, if he has one. OTOH is there such a thing as excommunication in Judaism? ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-rabbi-be-stripped-of-his-title/505648/5 "2009-08-07T18:01:38Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > OTOH is there such a thing as excommunication in Judaism? The Jewish philosopher [Baruch Spinoza](http://www.mnstate.edu/mouch/spinoza/excomm.html) is often said to have been excommunicated. However, he wasn’t excommunicated in the Catholic sense. That is, no one declared that he was no longer Jewish, and the “excommunication” wouldn’t have been considered binding on anyone outside the community that excommunicated him. Rather, a panel of rabbis from the Portuguese Jewish congregation in Amsterdam issued a _cherem_\* against him, declaring that no one was to associate with him: > [@](#): > > That no one should communicate with him neither in writing nor accord him any favor nor stay with him under the same roof nor within four cubits in his vicinity; nor shall he read any treatise composed or written by him. \*Related to Arabic _haram_, “forbidden.” ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-rabbi-be-stripped-of-his-title/505648/6 "2009-08-07T18:08:39Z")
so … how does a rabbi find a congregation and is the pay any good? I know my parents church when I was very young contacted a baptist seminary and interviewed a number of recent graduates, and invited them to do a 3 month trial before deciding on a new pastor … is it similar? ---
**Author:** ![Sigmagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-rabbi-be-stripped-of-his-title/505648/7 "2009-08-07T18:17:35Z")
So a _cherem_ is something like the Amish practice of shunning? But that could happen to any person who performs an egregious act, not just a rabbi, couldn’t it? And is it always permanent, or could it be for a set period? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-rabbi-be-stripped-of-his-title/505648/8 "2009-08-07T18:52:16Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > so … how does a rabbi find a congregation and is the pay any good? > > I know my parents church when I was very young contacted a baptist seminary and interviewed a number of recent graduates, and invited them to do a 3 month trial before deciding on a new pastor … is it similar? Yes. We just hired a new Rabbi and we worked through the Conservative association (of which our synagogue is a member). We interviewed both veterans who were looking for a new position and new Rabbinical school graduates. In the interim we had two Rabbinical school interns available for High Holy services etc. Most of the weekly services were conducted by the more knowledgeable members of the congregation. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-rabbi-be-stripped-of-his-title/505648/9 "2009-08-07T19:03:25Z")
> [@Sigmagirl](#): > > So a _cherem_ is something like the Amish practice of shunning? But that could happen to any person who performs an egregious act, not just a rabbi, couldn’t it? And is it always permanent, or could it be for a set period? It has to be for a serious charge- from what I’ve read, it was usually for refusing to recognize rabbinic authority or heresy. Baruch Spinoza was kicked out for heresy. In the seventeenth century there was a whole ridiculous back-and-forth cherem between followers of different groups- first because of [Shabbatai Tzvi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbatai_Zevi), then btween the Hassidim and the Mitnagidim. It’s not perminant, in theory- cherem is only supposed to last until the person backs down and admits their mistake. Which may very well be never, or maybe just a short time. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-rabbi-be-stripped-of-his-title/505648/10 "2009-08-07T19:41:15Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > so … how does a rabbi find a congregation and is the pay any good? > > I know my parents church when I was very young contacted a baptist seminary and interviewed a number of recent graduates, and invited them to do a 3 month trial before deciding on a new pastor … is it similar? When I belonged to a congregation that was looking for a rabbi, that’s similar to what we did. Then we invited candidates to come and lead a Friday night service and give a sermon. There was also an interview process, but I wasn’t on the search committee so I don’t know what they discussed with candidates. Other congregations might bring someone in as an interim rabbi for a year or so and then offer a permanent position if things are going well. > [@Sigmagirl](#): > > So a _cherem_ is something like the Amish practice of shunning? But that could happen to any person who performs an egregious act, not just a rabbi, couldn’t it? And is it always permanent, or could it be for a set period? It’s more like shunning than anything else, and yes, anyone can be put in _cherem_. In Orthodox communities, it’s one way to force a divorced man to give his ex-wife a _get_ (a bill of religious divorce - a woman can’t initiate a religious divorce, and without one, a divorced woman can’t enter into another religious marriage). _Cherem_ can be revoked once the offending behavior ends (in the above example, it would end when the man hands over the get to his ex-wife). ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-rabbi-be-stripped-of-his-title/505648/11 "2009-08-07T20:20:06Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Yes. We just hired a new Rabbi and we worked through the Conservative association (of which our synagogue is a member). We interviewed both veterans who were looking for a new position and new Rabbinical school graduates. In the interim we had two Rabbinical school interns available for High Holy services etc. Most of the weekly services were conducted by the more knowledgeable members of the congregation. Ah =) thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-rabbi-be-stripped-of-his-title/505648/12 "2009-08-07T20:44:59Z")
What I have always heard is that a rabbi is just someone more learned than the average layman, but that for conducting services you don’t need a rabbi, just someone who knows the procedures, can read Hebrew, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-rabbi-be-stripped-of-his-title/505648/13 "2009-08-07T21:05:58Z")
Right. Calling yourself “Rabbi” just means, “I am well versed in Jewish law, and I have a certificate to prove it”. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-rabbi-be-stripped-of-his-title/505648/14 "2009-08-07T21:31:23Z")
BTW, in the Catholic church excommunication doesn’t mean your no longer a Catholic, it means you cannot participate in the sacraments until the “problem” has been solved. A defeocked priest is still a priest, nothing can “un-consecrate” him, it only means he cannot legally perform his actions as a priest. it like a doctor who’s had his licence revoked, he doesn’t forget medicine. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-rabbi-be-stripped-of-his-title/505648/15 "2009-08-07T23:31:48Z")
A rabbi can be stripped of his title, but only if he’s named Eliezer Ali. _“I have been ordained,” cried the old rascal. Holmes: “And also unfrocked.” “Once a clergyman, always a clergyman.” “I think not.”_ The Adventure Of The Solitary Cyclist - Conan Doyle ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-rabbi-be-stripped-of-his-title/505648/16 "2009-08-08T09:37:22Z")
What were these rabbis doing that was so bad? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-rabbi-be-stripped-of-his-title/505648/17 "2009-08-08T10:27:23Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > What were these rabbis doing that was so bad? Selling [non-kosher meat](http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2009/07/24/3_nj_mayors_5_rabbis_arrested_in_corruption_case/). ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-rabbi-be-stripped-of-his-title/505648/18 "2009-08-08T20:18:14Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Selling [non-kosher meat](http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2009/07/24/3_nj_mayors_5_rabbis_arrested_in_corruption_case/). Are Apple-Jacks kosher? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-rabbi-be-stripped-of-his-title/505648/19 "2009-08-08T22:48:27Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Are Apple-Jacks kosher? I would assume so. There isn’t any animal stuff in it, and plants are always kosher. (But not necessarily kosher for passover.) ETA: Here it is straight from the [horse’s mouth](http://www2.kelloggs.com/Product/ProductDetail.aspx?product=552): > [@Kellogg's](#): > > Kellogg’s® Apple Jacks® cereal > > Crunchy, sweetened three-grain cereal with apple and cinnamon. > > **Ingredients** > SUGAR, CORN FLOUR, WHEAT FLOUR, OAT FLOUR, SALT, MILLED CORN, DRIED APPLES, APPLE JUICE CONCENTRATE, MODIFIED CORN STARCH, CINNAMON, SODIUM ASCORBATE AND ASCORBIC ACID (VITAMIN C), YELLOW #6, NIACINAMIDE, REDUCED IRON, ZINC OXIDE, BAKING SODA, PYRIDOXINE HYDROCHLORIDE (VITAMIN B6), TURMERIC COLOR, CALCIUM PHOSPHATE, RIBOFLAVIN (VITAMIN B2), THIAMIN HYDROCHLORIDE (VITAMIN B1), RED #40, VITAMIN A PALMITATE, BLUE #1, BHT (PRESERVATIVE), FOLIC ACID, VITAMIN D AND VITAMIN B12. > > **Kosher Status** > Kosher/Parve ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-rabbi-be-stripped-of-his-title/505648/20 "2009-08-08T23:21:22Z")
I imagine the ceremony of defrocking a rabbi would be rather like the opening to the TV show _Branded_: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/DKmJPnAGUJk/hqdefault.jpg "Branded") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKmJPnAGUJk) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-rabbi-be-stripped-of-his-title/505648.md?page=2)