# Can a recording made of a US citizen overseas by foreign police be used in a US court?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-recording-made-of-a-us-citizen-overseas-by-foreign-police-be-used-in-a-us-court/814933
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [May 28, 2018, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-recording-made-of-a-us-citizen-overseas-by-foreign-police-be-used-in-a-us-court/814933 "2018-05-28T00:00:26Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)
#### Post date: [May 28, 2018, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-recording-made-of-a-us-citizen-overseas-by-foreign-police-be-used-in-a-us-court/814933/1 "2018-05-28T00:00:26Z")
So apparently Spanish police have given Mueller recordings of [Trump Jnr in conversation with Russian bankers](https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/fbi-wiretaps-putin-ally-trump-jr_us_5b08bf56e4b0568a880b7859).
My question is, given these recordings were made in Spain, by Spanish police how can they be used? Other than pointing Mueller to things he might want to look into. There is this quote in the article:
> [@](#):
>
> But Grinda added that if Mueller or any other U.S. prosecutor seeks to use the material as part of a court case, they would have to make a second, more formal request to do so to the Spanish government.
Even if there is unambiguous smoking gun evidence in the tapes of someone admitting to a committing a crime in a US jurisdiction, could they used as evidence in a US court? Is there a precedent for using a evidence collected overseas by a foreign law enforcement agency to try someone in a US court? And if so why the extra requirement that a formal request be made so that they can be used in a court case? Is that a legal thing or an international relations formality?
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### Author:  [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)
#### Post date: [May 28, 2018, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-recording-made-of-a-us-citizen-overseas-by-foreign-police-be-used-in-a-us-court/814933/2 "2018-05-28T00:02:30Z")
I actually meant for this to be in GQ not GD…
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### Author:  [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)
#### Post date: [May 28, 2018, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-recording-made-of-a-us-citizen-overseas-by-foreign-police-be-used-in-a-us-court/814933/3 "2018-05-28T00:04:58Z")
Why wouldn’t it be admissible? There’s an awful lot of assistance between police agencies in different countries. Otherwise, international criminal actors and groups (e.g. Mafia, drug rings) are always at an advantage over individual countries.
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### Author:  [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)
#### Post date: [May 28, 2018, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-recording-made-of-a-us-citizen-overseas-by-foreign-police-be-used-in-a-us-court/814933/4 "2018-05-28T00:07:39Z")
Not familiar with Spanish law, but i would guess that the purpose for that requirement for a formal request for the evidence is a due process requirement under Spanish law: to make sure that the country requesting the evidence has valid reasons to need it, and will use it in a way consistent with Spanish law.
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### Author:  [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)
#### Post date: [May 28, 2018, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-recording-made-of-a-us-citizen-overseas-by-foreign-police-be-used-in-a-us-court/814933/5 "2018-05-28T00:10:40Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#):
>
> Why wouldn’t it be admissible? There’s an awful lot of assistance between police agencies in different countries. Otherwise, international criminal actors and groups (e.g. Mafia, drug rings) are always at an advantage over individual countries.
Well the Spanish constitution is very different to the US constitution, why would a Spanish warrant be considered due process under the fourth amendment in a US court? Also wouldn’t the defendant usually have the right to call the police officer who made a recording like that to testify, would the Spanish Guardia Civil be OK with that?
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### Author:  [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)
#### Post date: [May 28, 2018, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-recording-made-of-a-us-citizen-overseas-by-foreign-police-be-used-in-a-us-court/814933/6 "2018-05-28T00:16:44Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#):
>
> Not familiar with Spanish law, but i would guess that the purpose for that requirement for a formal request for the evidence is a due process requirement under Spanish law: to make sure that the country requesting the evidence has valid reasons to need it, and will use it in a way consistent with Spanish law.
Though as they’ve already handed over the recording it seems a bit too late for that.
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### Author:  [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)
#### Post date: [May 28, 2018, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-recording-made-of-a-us-citizen-overseas-by-foreign-police-be-used-in-a-us-court/814933/7 "2018-05-28T00:26:21Z")
I suspect to use it in court they need to prove the provenance of the tape so they would need to prove this was a tape of Don Jr. etc.
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### Author:  [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)
#### Post date: [May 28, 2018, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-recording-made-of-a-us-citizen-overseas-by-foreign-police-be-used-in-a-us-court/814933/8 "2018-05-28T00:41:45Z")
> [@OldGuy](#):
>
> I suspect to use it in court they need to prove the provenance of the tape so they would need to prove this was a tape of Don Jr. etc.
If it was made the US police they would need to show more than that. They would need to show that it was recorded according to due process under the 4th amendment (basically, assuming it was taken without the participants knowledge somewhere they had an expectation of privacy, they would have to show a warrant)
Why would be any different for a recording made in Spain. Except I don’t see how showing a warrant signed by a Spanish judge (who is not governed by the 4th amendment or any other part of the US constitution) would hold up in court.
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### Author:  [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)
#### Post date: [May 28, 2018, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-recording-made-of-a-us-citizen-overseas-by-foreign-police-be-used-in-a-us-court/814933/9 "2018-05-28T00:45:47Z")
> [@griffin1977](#):
>
> Why would be any different for a recording made in Spain. Except I don’t see how showing a warrant signed by a Spanish judge (who is not governed by the 4th amendment or any other part of the US constitution) would hold up in court.
It is different if a private citizen makes the recording and turns it over to the police. So the question is also whether the stricter restrictions on the police apply to the Spanish police assuming the recording was legal there.
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### Author:  [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)
#### Post date: [May 28, 2018, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-recording-made-of-a-us-citizen-overseas-by-foreign-police-be-used-in-a-us-court/814933/10 "2018-05-28T01:42:45Z")
> [@OldGuy](#):
>
> It is different if a private citizen makes the recording and turns it over to the police. So the question is also whether the stricter restrictions on the police apply to the Spanish police assuming the recording was legal there.
IANAL but I assume the same rules would apply to private citizen as to the police. If the recording was taken in private, without the speakers knowledge, without a warrant (a private citizen, presumably being unable to get a warrant) then it would be inadmissible in court.
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### Author:  [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)
#### Post date: [May 28, 2018, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-recording-made-of-a-us-citizen-overseas-by-foreign-police-be-used-in-a-us-court/814933/11 "2018-05-28T02:09:38Z")
> [@griffin1977](#):
>
> IANAL but I assume the same rules would apply to private citizen as to the police. If the recording was taken in private, without the speakers knowledge, without a warrant (a private citizen, presumably being unable to get a warrant) then it would be inadmissible in court.
Is that the law in Spain? Because that isn’t the law in most of the USA.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [May 28, 2018, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-recording-made-of-a-us-citizen-overseas-by-foreign-police-be-used-in-a-us-court/814933/12 "2018-05-28T02:53:46Z")
Even within the US, laws vary from state to state on who’s allowed to record a conversation, and whether they need to give notice. It seems to me that if they were in Spain, then all that matters is whether it was done according to Spanish law.
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### Author:  [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)
#### Post date: [May 28, 2018, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-recording-made-of-a-us-citizen-overseas-by-foreign-police-be-used-in-a-us-court/814933/13 "2018-05-28T05:51:35Z")
> [@Chimera](#):
>
> Because that isn’t the law in most of the USA.
Absolutely it is. I cannot secretly record someone else’s conversation in the privacy of their own home and present that in court. In some states I can secretly record what is said to ME without permission, but even in those states it doesn’t give me the right to randomly wiretap someone else’s conversation.
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### Author:  [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)
#### Post date: [May 28, 2018, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-recording-made-of-a-us-citizen-overseas-by-foreign-police-be-used-in-a-us-court/814933/14 "2018-05-28T05:52:42Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> Even within the US, laws vary from state to state on who’s allowed to record a conversation, and whether they need to give notice. It seems to me that if they were in Spain, then all that matters is whether it was done according to Spanish law.
Why would that matter in a US court? Spain doesn’t have a 4th Amendment so why would a Spanish court finding it legal mean it is admissible in a US court?
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### Author:  [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)
#### Post date: [May 28, 2018, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-recording-made-of-a-us-citizen-overseas-by-foreign-police-be-used-in-a-us-court/814933/15 "2018-05-28T06:07:38Z")
That it happened outside US is not relevant. Look to the US court rules of evidence to find out what is admissable and what is not, that is the only rescource you need. I seem to recall something about overseas sex crimes by US citizens being prosecuted in the USA. The fact that all the evidence happened overseas does not make it inadmissable.
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### Author:  [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)
#### Post date: [May 28, 2018, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-recording-made-of-a-us-citizen-overseas-by-foreign-police-be-used-in-a-us-court/814933/16 "2018-05-28T06:12:00Z")
> [@Isamu](#):
>
> That it happened outside US is not relevant. Look to the US court rules of evidence to find out what is admissable and what is not, that is the only rescource you need.
And in a US court a recording made in secret, without a warrant from a US judge, of two parties speaking in private would absolutely not be admissible.
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### Author:  [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)
#### Post date: [May 28, 2018, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-recording-made-of-a-us-citizen-overseas-by-foreign-police-be-used-in-a-us-court/814933/17 "2018-05-28T06:37:48Z")
> [@Isamu](#):
>
> That it happened outside US is not relevant. Look to the US court rules of evidence to find out what is admissable and what is not, that is the o."nly rescource you need.
Are you sure? There was a Supreme Court case in 1976 (Janis) regarding 4th Amendment rights, where they ruled, “The exclusionary rule, as a deterrent sanction, is not applicable where a private party or a foreign government commits the offending act.” It’s only if a US agency works in concert with the foreign government that it becomes inadmissable. However, that was a civil, IRS issue, so maybe it doesn’t apply here.
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### Author:  [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)
#### Post date: [May 28, 2018, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-recording-made-of-a-us-citizen-overseas-by-foreign-police-be-used-in-a-us-court/814933/18 "2018-05-28T13:33:21Z")
> [@griffin1977](#):
>
> And in a US court a recording made in secret, without a warrant from a US judge, of two parties speaking in private would absolutely not be admissible.
On what basis? First off, in some states, only one consent is needed to record, so if one of the parties decides to record the conversation, it’s perfectly legal.
Second, the exclusionary rule is part of the Constitution’s restrictions on government. If a private party does something illegal, without any urging from government, where’s your basis for saying it would be excluded?
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### Author:  [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)
#### Post date: [May 28, 2018, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-recording-made-of-a-us-citizen-overseas-by-foreign-police-be-used-in-a-us-court/814933/19 "2018-05-28T16:30:48Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#):
>
> On what basis? First off, in some states, only one consent is needed to record, so if one of the parties decides to record the conversation, it’s perfectly legal.
It’s a one party rule, not a zero party rule. As I point out above It gives you the right to record something said to you not a conversation (like the one discussed here) between strangers in private.
> [@Northern\_Piper](#):
>
> Second, the exclusionary rule is part of the Constitution’s restrictions on government. If a private party does something illegal, without any urging from government, where’s your basis for saying it would be excluded?
Being legal recorded is absolutely the first criteria that must be satisfied before a recording is admissible. There are other ones, a legal recording is not necessarily admissible, but an illegal recording is absolutely inadmissible.
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### Author:  [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)
#### Post date: [May 28, 2018, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-recording-made-of-a-us-citizen-overseas-by-foreign-police-be-used-in-a-us-court/814933/20 "2018-05-28T16:58:50Z")
> [@griffin1977](#):
>
> It’s a one party rule, not a zero party rule. As I point out above It gives you the right to record something said to you not a conversation (like the one discussed here) between strangers in private.
Well that depends on the specifics, doesn’t it?
If I record a private conversation happening next to me in a restaurant that I can overhear, I can legitimately be called a party to that conversation and they can’t claim an expectation of privacy if speaking in a public space.
If I have my house wired for video and audio and two people step into my study to have a ‘private’ conversation, they would have a rather specious claim to privacy there.
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