# Can a ship be declared an independent nation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 1, 2002, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-ship-be-declared-an-independent-nation/116869 "2002-07-01T17:56:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Engywook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bc8723/32.png) [@Engywook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Engywook)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2002, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-ship-be-declared-an-independent-nation/116869/1 "2002-07-01T17:56:42Z")
I saw something on the Bravo Channel a while back where a U.N. representative explained what you need to do to be recognized as as a country. It seemed pretty straightforward… but I don’t recall that the rep said anything about what can, or cannot be a country. So… if I bought a cruise ship and christened it the _Engywook_, could I make the ship my own country? Would it be subject to the laws of international waters, or to its own laws? What would happen if this ship were to leave international waters? And has this actually been done before? ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2002, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-ship-be-declared-an-independent-nation/116869/2 "2002-07-01T18:02:29Z")
Your biggest problem is that if no other country recognizes you as a country, you won’t be a country. And your ship, unless you built out of flotsam in international waters, is almost assuredly registered under some other country’s flag. And that country probably won’t like you unilaterally declaring yourself independent. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2002, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-ship-be-declared-an-independent-nation/116869/3 "2002-07-01T18:54:57Z")
\>\> could I make the ship my own country? You can do anything you want but when you start getting hungry and need to call on some port, they are going to want to see some legit papers. As long as you are on the high seas, you also might find it convenient to have some papers from a _real_ country or you may find yourself subject to seizure by pretty much anyone who happens by. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2002, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-ship-be-declared-an-independent-nation/116869/4 "2002-07-01T19:12:59Z")
\>\> could I make the ship my own country? You can do anything you want but when you start getting hungry and need to call on some port, they are going to want to see some legit papers. As long as you are on the high seas, you also might find it convenient to have some papers from a _real_ country or you may find yourself subject to seizure by pretty much anyone who happens by. ---
**Author:** ![xash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c6cbf5/32.png) [@xash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xash)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2002, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-ship-be-declared-an-independent-nation/116869/5 "2002-07-01T20:17:55Z")
take a look at the principality of sealand… it has been discussed on this board before… so if you do a search for principality of sealand perhaps you could get your answer… [http://www.sealandgov.com/](http://www.sealandgov.com/) ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2002, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-ship-be-declared-an-independent-nation/116869/6 "2002-07-01T20:32:18Z")
As long as you can defend it - this could mean legally or by force. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2002, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-ship-be-declared-an-independent-nation/116869/7 "2002-07-01T20:37:46Z")
Alas, the [Master has spoken](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_300.html). Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Anomalocaris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b77776/32.png) [@Anomalocaris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anomalocaris)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-ship-be-declared-an-independent-nation/116869/8 "2002-07-02T04:17:54Z")
How can Sealand, which is a man-made structure, be considered an independant nation and claim terretorial waters? Japan has put much effort into preserving the island of Okinotorishima(sp?). This is a tiny coral island, but it allows Japan to claim thousands of sqkm of territorial waters. But the island is eroding, so concrete walls were built around it. Their problem is that if they placed the walls upon the island, it would be considered an artificial reef- and they’d lose the territorial waters thus surrounding. I know the soveregnity of Sealand is questioned my many if not most of the world’s governments, but how valid is their claim to their waters? Would a UK ship fishing in the vicinity of Sealand be commiting a hostile act? Can Sealand dump whatever it pleases into its waters? ---
**Author:** ![mazzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@mazzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mazzer)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-ship-be-declared-an-independent-nation/116869/9 "2002-07-02T07:36:21Z")
Well, let’s just consult our handy World Constitution … oh, that’s right, there isn’t one. Declarations mean nothing unless backed up with guns. The sad dope. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-ship-be-declared-an-independent-nation/116869/10 "2002-07-02T10:05:55Z")
**chriszarate** : But there are social rules that govern such international dealings, mainly because wars are inconvenient and messy and tend to provoke the anger of some groups that can be ignored sometimes, but not always. So if certain big players (the US being the global big player, with smaller versions confined to specific regions) recognize you, nobody else would want to attack you for fear of bringing down wrath. So a diplomat with a fast enough mouth and a silver tongue could create a fast _de facto_ nation out of a desert with marginal value to its current occupier or a reef or a ship. Hell, if the diplomat can claim a cause, outright land theft (reappropriating the piece of ground someone else is sitting on, possibly with international help) isn’t out of the question, even in the 20th century. Finally, we do have an unwritten World Constitution: The actions and opinions of the UN and NATO, which do not always coincide with the actions and opinions of the US (but are really helped if they do). Getting one of these groups on your side would be helpful. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-ship-be-declared-an-independent-nation/116869/11 "2002-07-02T14:36:23Z")
What about that boat that rich retirees are supposed to become residents of, and spend their lives sailing round the world avoiding tax everywhere? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-ship-be-declared-an-independent-nation/116869/12 "2002-07-02T14:49:05Z")
They use a boat which is registered in a tax haven, rather than a boat which is a state in its own right. ---
**Author:** ![mazzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@mazzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mazzer)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-ship-be-declared-an-independent-nation/116869/13 "2002-07-02T15:03:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Derleth \* > So a diplomat with a fast enough mouth and a silver tongue could create a fast _de facto_ nation out of a desert with marginal value to its current occupier or a reef or a ship. Hell, if the diplomat can claim a cause, outright land theft (reappropriating the piece of ground someone else is sitting on, possibly with international help) isn’t out of the question, even in the 20th century. UN or NATO guns are guns nonetheless. If you stole land, someone will want it, if not the original owner then someone else who recognizes that it is easy to steal. A reef or ship will be attacked by pirates in a matter of weeks if they know you have no protection. My point was, in response to the OP, that there are no guarantees except that Might Makes Right, and any “prcoess” for becoming a sovereign nation is of dubious value. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-ship-be-declared-an-independent-nation/116869/14 "2002-07-02T16:09:36Z")
In the case of Sealand, a lot of it has to do with a certain British tolerance. I can imagine that someone attempting a move like that on an abandoned oil derrick in the Caspian Sea would soon discover that the capabilities of the Iranian, Azerbajani or Russian military may not be what they used to be, but they do the job eventually. As to a sovereign ship, what they said. Besides, there’s this thing called a torpedo… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Zahn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e0b2c6/32.png) [@John\_Zahn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Zahn)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-ship-be-declared-an-independent-nation/116869/15 "2002-07-02T17:24:18Z")
It’s been a long time since I’ve heard anything about Sealand. It was interesting to read about it again as well as read the OP and following posts. Along similar lines, I’ve often wondered why some rich folk hasn’t got the notion to hire an oceanographer, get the necessary topographical maps, and find some of the more shallow places in the ocean located far away from any international waters, and just make their own island and country. Man, that would be too cool. John ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-ship-be-declared-an-independent-nation/116869/16 "2002-07-02T17:31:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Zahn \* > \*\* > Along similar lines, I’ve often wondered why some rich folk hasn’t got the notion to hire an oceanographer, get the necessary topographical maps, and find some of the more shallow places in the ocean located far away from any international waters, and just make their own island and country. Man, that would be too cool. > \*\* I had always imagined that as a citizen of a country, any new land you discover (or create) would belong to the country that you were a citizen of. Which leads me to two questions: 1. If a U.S. citizen (or anyone else, for that matter) discovers a new island somewhere in the South Pacific, can they declare it an independent country and have it recognized as such? 2. What about a stateless person? If a person who is a citizen of no country (such as someone who renounces their U.S. citizenship without getting citizenship in another country [yes, I know it’s a real bad idea]) finds a new island, can he set up shop there? Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![John\_Zahn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e0b2c6/32.png) [@John\_Zahn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Zahn)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-ship-be-declared-an-independent-nation/116869/17 "2002-07-02T18:02:44Z")
Zev, I would like to know more about it myself. John ---
**Author:** ![Milton\_De\_La\_Warre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Milton\_De\_La\_Warre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milton_De_La_Warre)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-ship-be-declared-an-independent-nation/116869/18 "2002-07-02T18:53:34Z")
You can call yourself a nation but you really aren’t one until other people (and particularly other nations) say you are. If as in Zev made or found some new land, all he would have is the land and maybe a cool looking rag of a flag until some other country says “Hail to thee, Zevlandia!” But this begs the question why they would want to do that. Because they’re nice? Not usually. Because they get something out of it, more like it. When France extended recongition to the rebel colonies in North America (1776), they did so to send a big F You to the UK. And often when some nation gets something, it’s at the expense of another’s percieved or real interests. Thus, if Cuba extends recognition to the so-called Conch Republic (a Florida Key?) and enters negociations to base anti-ship missiles and submarines there, the US government will start taking the “joke” of the Conch Republic a lot more seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Milton\_De\_La\_Warre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Milton\_De\_La\_Warre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milton_De_La_Warre)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-ship-be-declared-an-independent-nation/116869/19 "2002-07-02T18:56:29Z")
You can call yourself a nation but you really aren’t one until other people (and particularly other nations) say you are. If Zev made or found some new land, all he would have is the land and maybe a cool looking rag of a flag until some other country says “Hail to thee, Zevlandia!” But this begs the question why they would want to do that. Because they’re nice? Not usually. Because they get something out of it, more like it. When France extended recongition to the rebel colonies in North America (1776), they did so to send a big F You to the UK. And often when some nation gets something, it’s at the expense of another’s percieved or real interests. Thus, if Cuba extends recognition to the so-called Conch Republic (a Florida Key?) and enters negociations to base anti-ship missiles and submarines there, the US government will start taking the “joke” of the Conch Republic a lot more seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Milton\_De\_La\_Warre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Milton\_De\_La\_Warre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milton_De_La_Warre)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-ship-be-declared-an-independent-nation/116869/20 "2002-07-02T19:13:36Z")
Sorry about the double post. Delete/disregard the first.