# Can a state punish you for doing something that is legal in another state but not in their state? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 8, 2019, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-punish-you-for-doing-something-that-is-legal-in-another-state-but-not-in-their-state/833680 "2019-05-08T19:50:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-punish-you-for-doing-something-that-is-legal-in-another-state-but-not-in-their-state/833680/101 "2019-05-15T04:41:12Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > I don’t see why not. Until recently, it was illegal for American citizens to smoke Cuban cigars anywhere in the world. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-punish-you-for-doing-something-that-is-legal-in-another-state-but-not-in-their-state/833680/102 "2019-05-15T07:43:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Cite? 31 CFR 515.204 applies worldwide (text in spoiler), except as exempted by the Dept. of Treasury. From 1963 until 2015 there was no such exemption. On December 17, 2014 President Obama announced some Cuba policy changes[1]. On January 16, 2015 the Treasury made an exemption for the importation of up to $400 in Cuban goods per person, of which only $100 could be alcohol or tobacco and only then if for personal purposes[2]. On October 17, 2016 the Treasury removed those monetary limits[3]. 515.204 Importation of and dealings in certain merchandise. [LIST=a][li]Except as specifically authorized by the Secretary of the Treasury (or any person, agency, or instrumentality designated by him) by means of regulations, rulings, instructions, licenses, or otherwise, no person subject to the jurisdiction of the United States may purchase, transport, import, or otherwise deal in or engage in any transaction with respect to any merchandise outside the United States if such merchandise:[/li][ol][li]Is of Cuban origin; or[/li][li]Is or has been located in or transported from or through Cuba; or[/li][li]Is made or derived in whole or in part of any article which is the growth, produce or manufacture of Cuba.[/ol][/li][li][Reserved][/LIST][/li] ~Max [1] _Statement by the President on Cuba Policy Changes_. (December 17, 2014). The White House: Office of the Press Secretary. Retrieved from [Statement by the President on Cuba Policy Changes | whitehouse.gov](https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2014/12/17/statement-president-cuba-policy-changes) [2] [80 FR 2295, January 16, 2015](https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Documents/fr80_2291.pdf) [3] [81 FR 71377, October 17, 2016](https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Documents/cacr_10142016.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-punish-you-for-doing-something-that-is-legal-in-another-state-but-not-in-their-state/833680/103 "2019-05-15T10:52:04Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I think double jeopardy only applies for the same charge in the same nation. > [@Max\_S](#): > > Egypt and the United States constitute two separate sovereigns. Thus one act would cause two distinct crimes, a crime against Egypt and a crime against the United States. Are you sure of it? I’m pretty certain it’s not the case here, and that you can’t be prosecuted in France for a crime commited in another nation if you’ve been already tried for this crime in this nation. And being sentenced twice for the same crime (or more, let’s assume that the victim is from a third country for instance and that country too prosecutes the culprit) seems pretty unjust. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-punish-you-for-doing-something-that-is-legal-in-another-state-but-not-in-their-state/833680/104 "2019-05-15T16:40:26Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Are you sure of it? I’m pretty certain it’s not the case here, and that you can’t be prosecuted in France for a crime commited in another nation if you’ve been already tried for this crime in this nation. And being sentenced twice for the same crime (or more, let’s assume that the victim is from a third country for instance and that country too prosecutes the culprit) seems pretty unjust. The point is that a sovereign nation has no superior to tell it that it cannot try a person who has already been convicted in another country or tell it that it cannot charge its own citizens for smoking Cuban cigars or having sex with an underaged prostitute in other countries. France may voluntarily limit itself and not prosecute someone who has already been tried in another country, but who is going to tell Egypt or the United States that you may not prosecute that person? ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-punish-you-for-doing-something-that-is-legal-in-another-state-but-not-in-their-state/833680/105 "2019-05-15T19:42:08Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Are you sure of it? I’m pretty certain it’s not the case here, and that you can’t be prosecuted in France for a crime commited in another nation if you’ve been already tried for this crime in this nation. And being sentenced twice for the same crime (or more, let’s assume that the victim is from a third country for instance and that country too prosecutes the culprit) seems pretty unjust. Not only are Egypt and the US separate sovereigns who can each prosecute, but the individual states are as well. It is well-established that both the federal government and a state government can separately try a person for the same act. (The federal government needs a jurisdictional hook, though). Often the federal government defers if there is a state prosecution, or vice versa. But it comes up, often in high profile cases – Michael Vick was prosecuted for his dog fighting ring by both the feds and the state of Virginia – or when the first prosecution fails – e.g., the federal trial of the officers who beat Rodney King. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-punish-you-for-doing-something-that-is-legal-in-another-state-but-not-in-their-state/833680/106 "2019-05-15T19:45:30Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > 31 CFR 515.204 applies worldwide (text in spoiler), except as exempted by the Dept. of Treasury. From 1963 until 2015 there was no such exemption. On December 17, 2014 President Obama announced some Cuba policy changes[1]. On January 16, 2015 the Treasury made an exemption for the importation of up to $400 in Cuban goods per person, of which only $100 could be alcohol or tobacco and only then if for personal purposes[2]. On October 17, 2016 the Treasury removed those monetary limits[3]. > > 515.204 Importation of and dealings in certain merchandise. > [LIST=a][li]Except as specifically authorized by the Secretary of the Treasury (or any person, agency, or instrumentality designated by him) by means of regulations, rulings, instructions, licenses, or otherwise, no person subject to the jurisdiction of the United States may purchase, transport, import, or otherwise deal in or engage in any transaction with respect to any merchandise outside the United States if such merchandise:[/li][ol][li]Is of Cuban origin; or[/li][li]Is or has been located in or transported from or through Cuba; or[/li][li]Is made or derived in whole or in part of any article which is the growth, produce or manufacture of Cuba.[/ol][/li][li][Reserved][/LIST][/li] > ~Max > > [1] _Statement by the President on Cuba Policy Changes_. (December 17, 2014). The White House: Office of the Press Secretary. Retrieved from [Statement by the President on Cuba Policy Changes | whitehouse.gov](https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2014/12/17/statement-president-cuba-policy-changes) > [2] [80 FR 2295, January 16, 2015](https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Documents/fr80_2291.pdf) > [3] [81 FR 71377, October 17, 2016](https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Documents/cacr_10142016.pdf) Can’t purchase, yes, but can smoke. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-punish-you-for-doing-something-that-is-legal-in-another-state-but-not-in-their-state/833680/107 "2019-05-15T23:26:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Can’t purchase, yes, but can smoke. If you can’t engage in any transaction, how can you get one? Is a gift a transaction? I honestly don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-punish-you-for-doing-something-that-is-legal-in-another-state-but-not-in-their-state/833680/108 "2019-05-16T01:47:19Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > If you can’t engage in any transaction, how can you get one? Is a gift a transaction? I honestly don’t know. Has to be a gift. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-punish-you-for-doing-something-that-is-legal-in-another-state-but-not-in-their-state/833680/109 "2019-05-16T03:10:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Has to be a gift. Gifts are transactions, if not under “dealings in” from 515.204 then under 515.201(b) which states (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > (b) All of the following transactions are prohibited, except as specifically authorized by the Secretary of the Treasury (or any person, agency, or instrumentality designated by him) by means of regulations, rulings, instructions, licenses, or otherwise, if such transactions involve property in which any foreign country designated under this part, or any national thereof, has at any time on or since the effective date of this section had any interest of any nature whatsoever, direct or indirect: > [ol][li]All dealings in, including, without limitation, **transfers** , withdrawals, or exportations of, any property or evidences of indebtedness or evidences of ownership of property by any person subject to the jurisdiction of the United States; and[/li][li]All **transfers** outside the United States with regard to any property or property interest subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.[/li][li]Any transaction for the purpose or which has the effect of evading or avoiding any of the prohibitions set forth in paragraph (a) or (b) of this section is hereby prohibited.[/li][li]For the purposes of this part, the term _foreign country designated under this part_ and the term _designated foreign country_ mean Cuba and the term _effective date_ and the term _effective date of this section_ mean with respect to Cuba, or any national thereof, 12:01 a.m., e.s.t., July 8, 1963.[/ol][/li]… “Transfer” is then defined as including gifts in 515.311 (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > §515.310 Transfer. > **The term _transfer_ shall mean any actual or purported act or transaction, whether or not evidenced by writing, and whether or not done or preformed within the United States,** the purpose, intent, or effect of which is to create, surrender, release, transfer, or alter, directly or indirectly, any right, remedy, power, privilege, or interest with respect to any property **and without limitation upon the foregoing shall include the making, execution, or delivery of any** assignment, power, conveyance, check, declaration, deed, deed of trust, power of attorney, power of appointment, bill of sale, mortgage, receipt, agreement, contract, certificate, **gift** , sale, affidavit, or statement; the appointment of any agent, trustee, or other fiduciary; the creation or transfer of any lien; the issuance, docketing, filing, or the levy of or under any judgment, decree, attachment, execution, or other judicial or administrative process or order, or the service of any garnishment; the acquisition of any interest of any nature whatsoever by reason of a judgment or decree of any foreign country; the fulfillment of any condition, or the exercise of any power of appointment, power of attorney, or other power. With a bit of substitution I get the following law: > [@31 CFR 515.201(b)](#): > > …[T]he following transactions are prohibited, except as specifically authorized by the Secretary of the Treasury…, if such transactions involve property in which [Cuba], or any national thereof, has at any time on or since [July 8, 1963] had any interest of any nature whatsoever, direct or indirect: > [ol][li]All dealings in, including, without limitation, [gifts]… of any property… by any person subject to the jurisdiction of the United States; and[/li][li]Any [gifts] outside the United States with regard to any property or property interest subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.[/ol][/li]… ~Max ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-punish-you-for-doing-something-that-is-legal-in-another-state-but-not-in-their-state/833680/110 "2019-05-16T17:40:25Z")
Nevermind. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-punish-you-for-doing-something-that-is-legal-in-another-state-but-not-in-their-state/833680/111 "2019-05-16T17:45:05Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > Except 31 CFR 515.585: That’s the law now. It was changed in 2016. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-punish-you-for-doing-something-that-is-legal-in-another-state-but-not-in-their-state/833680/112 "2019-05-16T17:48:39Z")
I don’t see how #2 can apply to smoking a gift cigar abroad, as it requires a transaction involving property subject to US jurisdiction. It might cover buying a cigar using US-based property, but how would it apply to an entirely extraterritorial gift transaction? ETA:. Sorry Nars – I deleted as soon as I realized the law under discussion was from before the change. I didn’t see you had replied. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-punish-you-for-doing-something-that-is-legal-in-another-state-but-not-in-their-state/833680/113 "2019-05-16T20:12:36Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Gifts are transactions, if not under “dealings in” from 515.204 then under 515.201(b) which states (bolding mine): > > “Transfer” is then defined as including gifts in 515.311 (bolding mine): > With a bit of substitution I get the following law: > ~Max Yes, but those apply to the transferor, not the transferee. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-punish-you-for-doing-something-that-is-legal-in-another-state-but-not-in-their-state/833680/114 "2019-05-16T22:56:16Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, but those apply to the transferor, not the transferee. Good catch, but I don’t think it is reasonable for “transactions” in section 201 to include “transfers” of property (including gifts) while “transactions” in section 204 does not. My construction of 201 was to show that gifts are transactions. ~Max [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-punish-you-for-doing-something-that-is-legal-in-another-state-but-not-in-their-state/833680.md?page=5)