# Can a state unilaterally cede from the union? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 10, 2002, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-unilaterally-cede-from-the-union/113234 "2002-06-10T12:17:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![scm1001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@scm1001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scm1001)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-unilaterally-cede-from-the-union/113234/1 "2002-06-10T12:17:37Z")
If say Hawaii no longer wanted to be part of the Union could it just say goodbye? If not, what moral grounds could the other states have for stopping it? Obviously something similar happened in 1861. But if Fort Sumter had not been attacked, could the confederacy just have slowly disentangled itself from the North? ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-unilaterally-cede-from-the-union/113234/2 "2002-06-10T12:23:44Z")
Succeed, you mean. And, no. The Civil War answered that question fairly definitively. Fort Sumter was only the beginning of the war; the North would have tried to bring back the South by military means even if there had been no attack. Fort Sumter allowed the North to claim they were attacked first – a good way to make the British hesistate from joining in – but the war would have occurred without it. A succession today wouldn’t be stopped on moral grounds; it would be stopped on the legal grounds that you could not succeed. If Hawaii succeeded, the U.S. would probably send troops to bring it back in. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-unilaterally-cede-from-the-union/113234/3 "2002-06-10T12:28:43Z")
I was under the impression that Texas has the right to do so if it so chooses. They negotiated that on entry or something. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-unilaterally-cede-from-the-union/113234/4 "2002-06-10T12:35:29Z")
“Secede”, actually. For your reading pleasure, the U.S. Supreme Court case [_State of Texas v. White_](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=74&page=700) (1868)–courtesy, really, of **minty green** , who has posted it before on some of our other threads on this particular topic. To quote from the decision of the Supreme Court: > [@](#): > > The Union of the States never was a purely artificial and arbitrary relation. It began among the Colonies, and grew out of common origin, mutual sympathies, kindred principles, similar interests, and geographical relations. It was confirmed and strengthened by the necessities of war, and received definite form, and character, and sanction from the Articles of Confederation. By these the Union was solemnly declared to ‘be perpetual.’ And when these Articles were found to be inadequate to the exigencies of the country, the Constitution was ordained ‘to form a more perfect Union.’ It is difficult to convey the idea of indissoluble unity more clearly than by these words. What can be indissoluble if a perpetual Union, made more perfect, is not?.. > > The Constitution, in all its provisions, looks to an indestructible Union, composed of indestructible States. When, therefore, Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State. The act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final. The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration, or revocation, except through revolution, or through consent of the States. > > Considered therefore as transactions under the Constitution, the ordinance of secession, adopted by the convention and ratified by a majority of the citizens of Texas, and all the acts of her legislature intended to give effect to that ordinance, were absolutely null. They were utterly without operation in law. The obligations of the State, as a member of the Union, and of every citizen of the State, as a citizen of the United States, remained perfect and unimpaired. It certainly follows that the State did not cease to be a State, nor her citizens to be citizens of the Union. If this were otherwise, the State must have become foreign, and her citizens foreigners. The war must have ceased to be a war for the suppression of rebellion, and must have become a war for conquest and subjugation. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-unilaterally-cede-from-the-union/113234/5 "2002-06-10T12:49:36Z")
If you were a member state of the Soviet Union, then the U.S. could have _encouraged_ you to secede. But secession is only okay if you belong to the bad guys. 😛 😉 😃 (\<=== Joke!) No, a state cannot secede. It’s hard enough for a city. For example, San Fernando and Hollywood want to secede from Los Angeles. Each city gives up the benefits of being part of L.A. (police and fire protection, for example) and must pay “alimony” of several million dollars per year. (I think I heard the sum of $21 million for one of the cities.) ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-unilaterally-cede-from-the-union/113234/6 "2002-06-10T13:33:43Z")
Nothing succeeds like secession. My wife, however, had an appointment with a dentist whose office was in the old **Union** Bank building, so when she fled the building in a **state** of high nervousness, she was … um… ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-unilaterally-cede-from-the-union/113234/7 "2002-06-10T14:08:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Johnny L.A. \* > If you were a member state of the Soviet Union, then the U.S. could have _encouraged_ you to secede. But secession is only okay if you belong to the bad guys. 😛 😉 😃 (\<=== Joke!) Oh, well that’s entirely different. Every member Soviet Socialist Republic of the USSR had the right to secede. Stalin said so: > [@](#): > > To every Union Republic is reserved the right freely to secede from the U.S.S.R. – the [Constitution of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics](http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russian/const/1936toc.html) (1936), [Chapter II](http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russian/const/36cons01.html#chap02), Article 17 In practice, of course, they would have had you shot for even suggesting such a thing. ---
**Author:** ![scm1001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@scm1001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scm1001)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-unilaterally-cede-from-the-union/113234/8 "2002-06-10T14:11:43Z")
Thanks MEBuckner, so Hawaii could sucede, seuccede, suceed …oh dammit …separate if the other states permitted it. Would that be a simple ammendment of the constitution, and how many states would have to vote for it? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-unilaterally-cede-from-the-union/113234/9 "2002-06-10T14:19:21Z")
I dunno if it would take a constitutional amendment (in which case it would take the votes of two-thirds of each house of Congress, and then the ratifications of three-quarters of the state legislatures), or maybe just a simple act of Congress, passed by a majority of each house and then signed by (or at least not vetoed by) the President. _Admitting_ a state to the union doesn’t require a constitutional amendment, just an act of Congress. But the question’s never really come up. ---
**Author:** ![scm1001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@scm1001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scm1001)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-unilaterally-cede-from-the-union/113234/10 "2002-06-10T14:50:23Z")
The reason I asked is that there were only 31 states at the time of the civil war . It may not have been to difficult to get a simple Act of Congress signed, especially as 12 states were all or partially on the confederacy side, with only 16 states needed. Of course there was the presidentcial veto but… ---
**Author:** ![scm1001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@scm1001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scm1001)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-unilaterally-cede-from-the-union/113234/11 "2002-06-10T14:57:16Z")
whoops miscounted - make that 34 states ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-unilaterally-cede-from-the-union/113234/12 "2002-06-10T16:12:08Z")
It would not even take an amendment, just an act of Congress with the proviso that State X having chosen to leave the Union and the Federal government having no objections, it is hereby declared that … (with appropriate provisions). Of course, the old Fort Sumter question arises – what about Pearl Harbor, Scofield Barracks, Wickam Field, and all the other Federal installations? Would the Republic of Hawaii take kindly to having one of eight major islands and half their capital island belong to the military establishment of a foreign nation? (And if not, what would they be able to do about it?) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-unilaterally-cede-from-the-union/113234/13 "2002-06-10T16:24:06Z")
On a slight tangent - there _are_] moral grounds. Unless 100% of the population of the seceeding state votes to secede and renounces their U.S. citizenship, you’ll have a minority of U.S. citizens who, for all effects and purposes, have been conquered by a foreign power. The American Government has an obligation to protect U.S. citizens, and defend their rights as Americans. Slightly twisty logic, I know, but it makes some sense. ---
**Author:** ![Loopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loopus/32/15343_2.png) [@Loopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopus)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-unilaterally-cede-from-the-union/113234/14 "2002-06-10T16:24:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TheLoadedDog \* > \*\*I was under the impression that Texas has the right to do so if it so chooses. They negotiated that on entry or something. \*\* Well, according to [these guys](http://www.republic-of-texas.net/), we were never a part of the union to begin with. Or something. They’re nutcases, of course. What you may be remembering is that whenTexas was admitted as a state, it reserved the right to divide itself into as many as five states, because it was so big. This never came up afterwards, however. -Loopus ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-unilaterally-cede-from-the-union/113234/15 "2002-06-10T16:39:26Z")
So is it fair to say that status as a state of the United States is something akin to a contractual obligation, such that unless both parties to a contract agree to a change to or dissolution of the contract, any conflicting “unilateral” action would be similar to a contractual violation? ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-unilaterally-cede-from-the-union/113234/16 "2002-06-10T16:57:08Z")
> [@](#): > > New states may be admitted by the Congress into this union; but no new states shall be formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any other state; nor any state be formed by the junction of two or more states, or parts of states, without the consent of the legislatures of the states concerned as well as of the Congress. (U.S. Const., Art. IV, Sec. 3.) The Constitution is silent on the power or procedure of secession. Assuming that right exists, the above provision may support the notion that secession must be approved by the legislature of the seceeding state AND Congress. I think **Doghouse’s** contract analogy is right on. The state and the Union exchange various rights and duties with each other, and one party shouldn’t be allowed to suddenly and unilaterally walk away. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-unilaterally-cede-from-the-union/113234/17 "2002-06-10T17:21:06Z")
There is a Supreme Court decision, based on the validity of a bond issue made by Texas and later repudiated by it (one or the other event having happened during the Late Unpleasantness of 1861-5), that said that states _could not_ unilaterally secede, and that Texas’s act in doing so was null and void. I’m basing my opinion on the theory that what the Constitution does not prohibit and Congress has the unquestioned power to do (accession, and admission to statehood), it also has the power to revoke the doing of (i.e., to permit the state to secede). The point raised by **Alessan** – that Hawaiians are American citizens with rights that the U.S. or Hawaiian governments may not revoke – requires to be resolved. ---
**Author:** ![knarf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@knarf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/knarf)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-unilaterally-cede-from-the-union/113234/18 "2002-06-10T17:40:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alessan \* > \*\*On a slight tangent - there _are_] moral grounds. Unless 100% of the population of the seceeding state votes to secede and renounces their U.S. citizenship, you’ll have a minority of U.S. citizens who, for all effects and purposes, have been conquered by a foreign power. The American Government has an obligation to protect U.S. citizens, and defend their rights as Americans. > > Slightly twisty logic, I know, but it makes some sense. \*\* Kind of like the loyal British subjects in the Revolutionary War?😃 ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-unilaterally-cede-from-the-union/113234/19 "2002-06-10T17:41:37Z")
> [@](#): > > There is a Supreme Court decision… That wouldn’t be [_State of Texas v. White_](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=119582#post2173005), would it? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-unilaterally-cede-from-the-union/113234/20 "2002-06-10T18:08:42Z")
You mean I’m supposed to read what _moderators_ say?!? :eek: 😛 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-state-unilaterally-cede-from-the-union/113234.md?page=2)