# Can a submarine turn upside down? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 30, 2014, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-submarine-turn-upside-down/680123 "2014-01-30T11:50:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2014, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-submarine-turn-upside-down/680123/61 "2014-02-03T02:12:47Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > I have so many of these true stories to tell that I can’t lie, but back to a submarine doing a roll over … if a Russian torpedo was coming at us we could do a cork screw just like the trick in Red October to knock the fish off it’s course of echo ranging, but the boat can’t do a roll over unless it was going to be hit anyway that would be an option worth considering. All depends on how smart and how quick the captain is. Except for the small issues - the reactor is designed to scram if either the pitch or yaw exceed a certain amount the planes are single shaft so you can’t flip one one direction and the other one a different direction to flip/roll for a barrel roll so the only other move might possibly be a loop [inside or outside] and if you did a loop, first the reactor would scram, then all the issues about being upside down mentioned above would kick in. Other than that, rolling or looping would make a great ‘no shit, there we were in the north sea when …’ tale. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-submarine-turn-upside-down/680123/62 "2014-02-03T14:42:17Z")
For the record, in pre-GPS times, a submarine could have found it’s position using LORAN-C. Or LORAN-A in the 1950’s. And the radiomen know what frequencies the NIST uses to broadcast time ticks. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-submarine-turn-upside-down/680123/63 "2014-02-03T14:58:24Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > . . .Other than that, rolling or looping would make a great ‘no shit, there we were in the north sea when …’ tale. I’m hearing this sentence in the voice of Commander McBragg. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Quatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc8723/32.png) [@Mr\_Quatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Quatro)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-submarine-turn-upside-down/680123/64 "2014-02-03T15:59:11Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > For the record, in pre-GPS times, a submarine could have found it’s position using LORAN-C. Or LORAN-A in the 1950’s. And the radiomen know what frequencies the NIST uses to broadcast time ticks. Thank you Ranger Jeff … I agree, but captains like to dot there eyes and cross their tee’s … so a star sighting adds to that input and the more input you have the better it is for the log he writes that includes accidents like the one described. They check these logs upon returning to port and have found several instances of missing the message testing our sub on patrol, sent by the joint Chiefs of Staff, to launch missiles. The message may have been sent while we were inoperable due to the 200’ of wire floating up behind our boat was under attack by fishing vessels thinking we were a school of fish or one of the many freighters than ran up our stern unheard due to the baffles hiding them and cutting our only communications at the time 40 years ago. Now they have all kinds of ways to communicate (I hear). and for: DeptfordX > [@](#): > > That is indeed an awesome story, one question. Couldn’t you have used active sonar? The active sonar (BQS-4)was right next to the passive sonar stacks (BQR-2B) & (BQR-7) and to make sure that we did not accidently go active by someone falling on the unit they made us remove the fuse that would activate the active sonar sending out a powerful signal that can be heard for miles and miles under the water. We were always turning around to listen in our wake to see if those cunning little Russian diesel boats were following us. I’m not too sure how far a surface craft could hear a ping, but we have heard surface craft active searches up to 60 miles away. Which reminds me of another story of the Italian navy ASW flotilla passing over our heads at a very high rate of speed pinging away, probably on their way to their home port in Italy and they didn’t stop or turn around or even know we were there lol \*\* Hey mods … testing\*\* How about putting this over in IMHO so others can give in their humble opinion a submarine can not turn upside down, but it can do this or do that. Perhaps there are other old submarine sailors that have stories too. and as for: > [@](#): > > the reactor is designed to scram if either the pitch or yaw exceed a certain amount This is true, but fast attacks can do half barrel rolls port and then starboard to avoid torpedo’s that are active to make a bubble wake while firing decoy’s at the same time, but you sound nuclear qualified so I won’t argue with you … doing a complete roll would be emergency lighting and hear the words, “Surface. surface” for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-submarine-turn-upside-down/680123/65 "2014-02-03T17:39:02Z")
What bugs me about this thread is the following : I get that there’s lots of stuff in the submarine, including critical stuff in the reactor steam apparatus that depends on gravity to work right. However, how far _can_ the boat safely bank over before stuff starts malfunctioning? This problem isn’t as obvious as it might seem to us non-sailors : airplanes, even big ones like 747s can do a roll. Lots of stuff in a big passenger airline will not like being inverted, but you can do it. Notably, I think the fuel systems will go dry after more than a brief period of being inverted. With a nuclear reactor or a ballast tank, it isn’t impossible to imagine a system that worked from any angle. Boiling water sounds problematic, but there are ways this could be handled. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-submarine-turn-upside-down/680123/66 "2014-02-03T17:51:19Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > After making six patrols with some of the craziest captains you have ever met … > > I guarantee you no submarine can turn upside down … > > 1. You have personnel onboard that can’t stand on their heads > 2. You have cooling water for the reactor on nuclear submarines > 3. You have weapons with nasty little things called warheads > 4. There is always someone in the head (restroom for land people) and they would become quite upset > > I was on a round bottom diesel submarine that did a 57 degree roll one time and I thought I was going to die being as how I was the lookout in the bridge and reached out touching the lull of the wave. > > We did have one captain that would get the sub going as fast as he could and then roll off like a fighter jet going port and then starboard. He wanted to do a 360 but couldn’t figure out how to keep the batteries all in one place. > > We had one captain that use to run around the Med at periscope depth without the periscope up with those big oil tankers coming out of the Suez Canal having a 60’ draft … now that’s what I call crazy. > > He went on to be in the commander in charge of all submarines on patrol out of Colorado. Well clearly you need to barrel roll it if you want to turn it upside down. That will keep crap from hitting the wall. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-submarine-turn-upside-down/680123/67 "2014-02-03T17:54:13Z")
Nitpick: a 747 could [theoretically](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/229/is-it-possible-to-loop-or-roll-a-747-jet) perform a barrel roll but in practice it’s never actually been done. There’s a video purporting to show it but the plane in it is obviously a 747. ---
**Author:** ![minor7flat5](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/minor7flat5/32/258_2.png) [@minor7flat5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minor7flat5)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-submarine-turn-upside-down/680123/68 "2014-02-03T18:42:09Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > With a nuclear reactor or a ballast tank, it isn’t impossible to imagine a system that worked from any angle. Boiling water sounds problematic, but there are ways this could be handled. This statement oversimplifies the engineering challenges. As I stated above, the condensate in the hotwell of the main condenser will trash the turbines of the main engines as soon as the sub is on its side. That isn’t something you can get around without reengineering the steam plant in a large way. A typical main condenser of a small vessel would fill a decent sized room, floor to ceiling, wall to wall. These are big heavy components. Steam plants in our naval vessels haven’t changed much since WWII; the steam may come from different places, but the essence of the power plant is the same. It would be a huge undertaking to redesign the entire plant to operate inverted. Almost everything will at best stop working (e.g. steam from the deaerating feed tank going into the main feed booster pumps and main feed pumps, instead of feed water) and at worst die in an explosive way (turbines). Now… how about if the power plant were shut down, “cold iron,” running on motors off the batteries? I wasn’t a sub sailor, so I don’t know jack about how sub batteries and motors work. Better have all electrical stuff covered well so that bilge water and other unwanted liquids don’t cause shorts. The steam plant would not be happy (lube oil pouring out of dipstick tubes; bilge water going everywhere; electrical panels getting wet), but if it were all shut off and prepared for the exercise, there might be a chance of the machinery surviving. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2014, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-submarine-turn-upside-down/680123/69 "2014-02-03T19:05:21Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > This is true, but fast attacks can do half barrel rolls port and then starboard to avoid torpedo’s that are active to make a bubble wake while firing decoy’s at the same time, but you sound nuclear qualified so I won’t argue with you … doing a complete roll would be emergency lighting and hear the words, “Surface. surface” for sure. While I did work for Henze-Movats in nuke power stations, being female sort of make me not really qualified to serve on subs, however I did spend 20 years married to a nuke a-ganger and hanging out with a lot of submariners. [And my stupid sub trick is knowing where and how to disable the CO’s hot water recirc pump on a 637 class sub \ Pity all of that class sub has gone to the great razorblade factory in the sky…] Though I do play a mean game of 688 😛 and loved dependent cruises because there was always a chance that I knew more about something on a sub that the baby officer was trying to tell the dependents about. Though I did once translate for a gaggle of French middies when their translator didn’t show up for the sub tour. Best times on a military base - getting to tour a Soviet guided missile cruiser when they did their friendship tour to Norfolk back in 1988, and going onto British ships to party in their onboard ‘pubs’. Meeting and touring foreign vessels is always a blast. ---
**Author:** ![Ex\_Bubblehead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ex_bubblehead/32/3397_2.png) [@Ex\_Bubblehead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ex_Bubblehead)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-submarine-turn-upside-down/680123/70 "2014-02-04T02:35:41Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > I guess the question is a bit like “How many submarines can reach the bottom of the Marianas Trench?” > > All of them, of course. I’ve corrected your spoiler 🙂 All of them…once… ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Goob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c77e96/32.png) [@Mr.Goob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Goob)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-submarine-turn-upside-down/680123/71 "2014-02-04T02:40:39Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > -snip- > > going onto British ships to party in their onboard ‘pubs’. Meeting and touring foreign vessels is always a blast. God I haven’t thought of this in over twenty years but being invited aboard a British tin can tied up in Abu Daubi and having a pint or three… ---
**Author:** ![Ex\_Bubblehead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ex_bubblehead/32/3397_2.png) [@Ex\_Bubblehead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ex_Bubblehead)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-submarine-turn-upside-down/680123/72 "2014-02-04T02:42:31Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Nitpick: a 747 could [theoretically](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/229/is-it-possible-to-loop-or-roll-a-747-jet) perform a barrel roll but in practice it’s never actually been done. There’s a video purporting to show it but the plane in it is obviously a 747. Virtually any aircraft can execute a 1g barrel roll. Done correctly the aircraft doesn’t even know it happened. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/-vHiYA6Dmws/hqdefault.jpg "707 roll") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vHiYA6Dmws) ---
**Author:** ![Ex\_Bubblehead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ex_bubblehead/32/3397_2.png) [@Ex\_Bubblehead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ex_Bubblehead)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-submarine-turn-upside-down/680123/73 "2014-02-04T02:56:36Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > …I have no idea if looping a sub is even possible… It’s not, but, during one very long specop we pondered that very question (in addition to “can a practical flying sub be designed?”) by assuming that it was indeed possible. I was on a 594 class at the time. Using the particulars of that class we worked out that at a flank bell the resulting loop would be ~22,000 ft in diameter. Any slower than flank always resulted in bottoming out in the Challenger Deep. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-submarine-turn-upside-down/680123/74 "2014-02-04T04:21:36Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > For the record, in pre-GPS times, a submarine could have found it’s position using LORAN-C. Or LORAN-A in the 1950’s. And the radiomen know what frequencies the NIST uses to broadcast time ticks. > [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > Thank you Ranger Jeff … I agree, but captains like to dot there eyes and cross their tee’s … so a star sighting adds to that input and the more input you have the better it is for the log he writes that includes accidents like the one described. They check these logs upon returning to port and have found several instances of missing the message testing our sub on patrol, sent by the joint Chiefs of Staff, to launch missiles. True, I can understand a CO preferring a celestial position. But I still think during local daylight hours, a LORFIX would be good enough to figure out where you were. Within a 50’ radius should be close enough, I’d think. But I’ll admit I’m biased; when I was in the USCG, I did a tour at a LORAN station and after that was an instructor at the LORAN school. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-submarine-turn-upside-down/680123/75 "2014-02-04T15:32:24Z")
> [@Mr.Goob](#): > > God I haven’t thought of this in over twenty years but being invited aboard a British tin can tied up in Abu Daubi and having a pint or three… I always loved meeting people - I have always found that 90% of everybody met will return friendship with friendship. There will always be a few assholes in the world. The busloads of baby Soviet sailors turned loose in Lynnhaven Mall were fun to watch as they sort of huddled together in terror at the wide open _elite shopping mall_ they suddenly had access to. When we were wandering around we had a bunch of US insignia - Navy, Army and Air Force stuff we had bought specially- and traded with the guys for Soviet stuff. I still have a bunch of stuff we got. > [@Ex\_Bubblehead](#): > > It’s not, but, during one very long specop we pondered that very question (in addition to “can a practical flying sub be designed?”) by assuming that it was indeed possible. I was on a 594 class at the time. Using the particulars of that class we worked out that at a flank bell the resulting loop would be ~22,000 ft in diameter. Any slower than flank always resulted in bottoming out in the Challenger Deep. 🙂 Oops … 😛 mrAru was on the following class - Sturgeon [He was on the Spadefish, 638] - he said they had some of the Threshers repair stock parts on board from the beginning and it creeped out some of the guys when they found out about it. But then again they were also creeped out about Thresher Hall 😛 Submariners tend to be more superstitious than the usual Navy guys I have found 😃 > [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > True, I can understand a CO preferring a celestial position. But I still think during local daylight hours, a LORFIX would be good enough to figure out where you were. Within a 50’ radius should be close enough, I’d think. But I’ll admit I’m biased; when I was in the USCG, I did a tour at a LORAN station and after that was an instructor at the LORAN school. Now that sounds like a much more interesting duty that NSSF and RADCON. When mrAru picked up a case of poison ivy that turned ugly and creeped over 80% of his body we were up at my parents house near Rochester NY when he decided to try and get some sort of medical care for it. We have a preference to hitting a military base for our medical needs, so he and my [retired] Army dad were trying to figure out where this active duty squid could go. We decided Niagara was too far to go, Drum was too far the other direction so I mentioned the little coastie station up in Webster [hey, it was near a bar we used to hang out in that had excellent wings…] so off we went. We got there, and the cute little chief in charge of about 12 guys and a couple of his guys who had duty that particular Saturday were baffled about where to suggest he go. His main comment was that he had been in charge of larger divisions than that entire duty station 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-submarine-turn-upside-down/680123/76 "2014-02-04T15:59:24Z")
> [@Ex\_Bubblehead](#): > > Virtually any aircraft can execute a 1g barrel roll. Done correctly the aircraft doesn’t even know it happened. > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vHiYA6Dmws](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vHiYA6Dmws) :smack: The post you were responding to was supposed to say “707” not 747, or else you would know that was the one I was talking about. > [@](#): > > There’s a video purporting to show it but the plane in it is obviously a 747. ---
**Author:** ![Ex\_Bubblehead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ex_bubblehead/32/3397_2.png) [@Ex\_Bubblehead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ex_Bubblehead)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-submarine-turn-upside-down/680123/77 "2014-02-04T16:05:41Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > …Oops … 😛 mrAru was on the following class - Sturgeon [He was on the Spadefish, 638] - he said they had some of the Threshers repair stock parts on board from the beginning and it creeped out some of the guys when they found out about it. But then again they were also creeped out about Thresher Hall 😛 Submariners tend to be more superstitious than the usual Navy guys I have found :D… I was also on a sister ship to the Scorpion (SSN 589) (USS Snook - SSN 592). Submariners aren’t so much more superstitious, we are simply very aware of just how dangerous our operating environment is. 3 questions for any fellow bubbleheads out there: 1. What two things were unique about the USS George Washington (SSBN-598)? 2. What set the USS Abraham Lincoln (SSBN-602) apart from every other submarine (SSN or SSBN) in the fleet? 3. On all Skipjack class SSN’s there was a small placard on the bulkhead aft of the SONAR shack (small alcove between SONAR and ships office). What was printed on that placard? ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-submarine-turn-upside-down/680123/78 "2014-02-04T16:33:59Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > …but the boat can’t do a roll over unless it was going to be hit anyway that would be an option worth considering. All depends on how smart and how quick the captain is. “Do a barrel roll!” – Peppy ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-submarine-turn-upside-down/680123/79 "2014-02-05T03:47:38Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Now that sounds like a much more interesting duty that NSSF and RADCON. > > When mrAru picked up a case of poison ivy that turned ugly and creeped over 80% of his body we were up at my parents house near Rochester NY when he decided to try and get some sort of medical care for it. We have a preference to hitting a military base for our medical needs, so he and my [retired] Army dad were trying to figure out where this active duty squid could go. We decided Niagara was too far to go, Drum was too far the other direction so I mentioned the little coastie station up in Webster [hey, it was near a bar we used to hang out in that had excellent wings…] so off we went. We got there, and the cute little chief in charge of about 12 guys and a couple of his guys who had duty that particular Saturday were baffled about where to suggest he go. His main comment was that he had been in charge of larger divisions than that entire duty station 😛 I did a year long tour at a LORAN A station on San Salvador, Bahamas. There were 14 Coasties there and, by the treaty, 2 indigenous personnel. The Old Man was a LTJG. It was considered “Isolated Duty”. We had to make our own electricity and provide our own water (there was a rain catchment and maybe a well also). Since the nearest hospital was a 2 hour flight away via air ambulance (after it took 2 hours flying to reach us), we always had a very competent and experienced HM1s (Hospital Corpsmen 1st Class) assigned to us. He’d have been able to take care of MrAru. Between Doc and the Government Nurse, that generally was it for medical care on San Sal (pop 750). ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-submarine-turn-upside-down/680123/80 "2014-02-05T04:22:25Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > The hull might even break, which Would Be Bad. Water in the people tank is a bad thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-submarine-turn-upside-down/680123.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-a-submarine-turn-upside-down/680123.md?page=5)