All I see on this thread are very vague and amorphous “everybody knows” kinda claims about how having been photographed naked corrupts the morals of youth and renders one unfit to teach and so forth, without any specifics of how that works. I weigh that against the very real harm that has been done to the teacher via the loss of her contract, and I gotta say, “where’s the beef?” I don’t see that those who say it’s OK she was fired have any concrete harm to the students to match the concrete harm they think should be done to the teacher.
In short, I call bullshit on this line of argument.
Oh, yeah, and the “bondage” photos. Go to Google, turn off Safe Search and then do an image search for “bondage.” Then come back here and try to say with a straight face that her pics are porn. Really. That’s just sad.
All I see on this thread are very vague and amorphous “everybody knows” kinda claims about how having been photographed naked corrupts the morals of youth and renders one unfit to teach and so forth, without any specifics of how that works. I weigh that against the very real harm that has been done to the teacher via the loss of her contract, and I gotta say, “where’s the beef?” I don’t see that those who say it’s OK she was fired have any concrete harm to the students to match the concrete harm they think should be done to the teacher.
In short, I call bullshit on this line of argument, absent something that has any kind of substance to it.
Oh, yeah, and the “bondage” photos. Go to Google, turn off Safe Search and then do an image search for “bondage.” Then come back here and try to say with a straight face that her pics are porn. Really. That’s just sad.
Actually, I currently live in TX in a dry county in West Texas. I’ve worked in TX since around 1997. I usually spend at least a month in South Texas every year. I’ve always done my “big city” shopping Texas. When I didn’t live in TX, the furthest from the state line that I lived is around 20 miles. My TV news channels have always been Texan. I don’t have any cites, but as an observer, I’d say that Texas is somewhat “socially conservative” side. I also really like Texas. I really like the city and county that I live in.
This is ridiculous. I can’t imagine that the district won’t lose in court. I was just told this week about the teacher in the cross-town HS who manages to make all his assigned reading to have gay themes, and (according to the description I was given), positively simpers around flaunting his obviously men-given hickeys. This guy has not been censured, and it’s much more arguable that this “affects the kids” than something on the net that you have to go out of your way to find, and has no bearing on the philosophy of what is being actually taught.
And what is the legal argument or rationale thatwill make the district lose, precisely? Since they’re …you know… in court, and all.
And what is the legal signifi…
Ah, never mind.
Two debates here:
If you wish to opine about how foolish, or unwise (or, I suppose, how prudent and wise) the district’s decision is, go right ahead.
If you want to offer an opnion of the legal strengths of the decision, on the other hand, maybe you should offer some kind of support, in the form of citation to precedent or law.
Count me in on the side of the teacher. This line to where the state can do these things must be drawn somewhere. This could very well be the time and the place.
What would the school board have said if she were wearing a bathing suit? Suppose it was a microbikini-a few inches of stretch nyon-would that make a difference?
If the contract is all that controls the issue, then you’re right. But since her employer is the government, her employer is limited in some respects in the conditions they can demand in their contract.
A private Catholic school could fire a teacher because she refused to teach her students that Jesus had a human and a divine nature. A public school teacher’s contract cannot require her to teach that fact.
So the question certainly is, “Does this contract prohibit the teacher’s actions?” but also, “Even if it does, are those contractual obligations actually enforeable?”
I think that it is important to note that we may not have all the details of the situation, then again, maybe we do- we can’t be sure. There may have been some other stuff go down that we may not know about. Maybe someday it will come out, maybe it won’t.
Just for fun , I would like to present a scenario from the employer’s point of view. Knowing what I know (again, I have to emphasize that I don’t have every fact in this case- so I have to make things a little general), if I was an employer or administrator of a large organization in which my employees were responsible for taking care of kids by themselves, and that organization faced daily scrutiny by the kid’s parents and the public in general (not to mention the media, would could affect the first two), both of which had high expectations for my employees trustworthiness and good decision making skills, I would have to say that I would not be too happy with an employee who knowingly had recent nude pictures of themselves on the internet.
My primary concern would not be whether the pictures had artistic merit or whether handcuffs are considered erotic- heck, we could argue that stuff all night long. What I would want to know is what this person was thinking letting nude pics of themselves be posted publicly to a website that could be easily accessed by kids, their students, parents, media, and members of the community. What was their process in thinking that it was OK? In their judgment, did they think that no one would be concerned about it? Did they know that the kids knew about it? Did they know that other teachers knew about it? When did they know that other people knew? In their judgment was the situation just not important enough for them to come to me and explain things from their perspective before the crap hit the fan and I heard it first coming from a reporter with a live news camera in my face? I would see what their attitude was like and how willing they were to work with me in resolving this situation.
If I was not satisfied with their answers, and I felt that this is a person whose judgment could not be trusted given the responsibilities of the job, I would have to let that person go. Part of my job as an administrator would be to gather as much information as I can and then respond to the current problem as well as anticipate future problems. I would then have to decide if the benefits of keeping this person outweighs the current situation and the risk of future problems. I might seem a little off base to a lot of you guys, but I feel that is the responsibility and right of the employer. Do we have any information that the school administrators did not give her a chance to explain herself?
I just thought of something that is funny, but a bit of a sidetrack.
I wonder what people’s reaction would be if the pictures that were publicly posted on teen heavily used MySpace and Flikr were of an unattractive, hairy, pimply, paunchy nude 45 year old English teacher wearing handcuffs and a spiked dog collar. Suppose another picture had him nude, sitting in a velvet chair wearing a Santa Claus hat and holding a candy cane. Suppose there was another with him laying on a checkered tablecloth with syrup on himself and holding a knife and a fork. Would people perceive this as art and trumpet him as a hero, or would they think of him as some weird ugly dude that they don’t want around their kids? :eek:
I know that the last two examples are silly and more strange to most people’s eyes than the Austin teacher’s pictures, but where are we going to draw the line? Can only art teachers wear dog collars and cuffs? Will someone think of the children?
The OP queries the decision to sack the teacher. But so many of the responses amount simply to pointing out that the teacher should know that she was likely to be sacked if she did what she did. These responses are framed as if they are relevant to the OP. Why? It’s a common thing in threads like this. I’ve noticed it regularly.
Personally, my theory is that the subject in question is taboo (in the literal, anthropological sense of the word). We read about “backward” tribes from the deepest jungles of Boogaboo and the really weird thing they have where it is forbidden to speak of the fruit of the yawala tree in Springtime, and think that very silly and quaint, but in truth we are no different.
Women undeniably have labia and breasts, but it is taboo in Western society to make this fact plain (except in certain closely regulated ways in relation to breasts. There are almost no exceptions as regards labia).
Taboo subjects, like fnords, cannot be freely questioned, discussed or engaged by societally conformist people, so they feel uncomfortable and try to deflect and talk about something else if the subject comes up.
Watch the twisting and turning of people in or described in threads like this:
or this:
Evil Captor has it right in post #61. There is a remarkable reluctance exhibited by some to engage in the most basic underlying question in this debate
I’ve been reading this thread, and following the links, since it came out, but I have not been posting because I simply don’t know which way I lean (on this issue).
I can honestly say that I am absolutely not surprised at the reactions and desicions of the powers that be. If I were an art teacher (Og forbid!), and I posted nude pictures of myself on the net as art, I would expect at some point to be fired if I did not take them down. (Thus, I immediately ask myself if this teacher was looking for a fight and wants to see how far - legally - this goes.)
OTOH, she did not introduce these pictures into the classroom. (I am assuming, here; I see no evidence thereof.) What she did was on her free time. If she had been caught sunbathing, and someone snapped some pics and posted them, I would support her reinstatement 100%.
OTOOH, it doesn’t look like she made it very difficult for students to find the pics. She used, not her first name, but “Ms. Hoover” in myspace, and included a link to flickr.
I know that one of art’s functions is to push boundaries (both personal and cultural). Also know that Ms. Hoover was teaching said discipline. But she was teaching art in high school, where, like as not, teachers are under the microscope of the community. I do think that our society has hangups with nudity. I don’t, however, think that she has made any real effort to heal society’s hangup. She pushed the boundaries of what society thinks is right and pushed them too far for this segment (public high school).
So, I suppose I have finally made my rambling way to a decision. If the school district PTB are truly speaking for the community, I would have to support their descion. Trying to have her license revoked is going too far, however. That speaks of someone with either an axe to grind or a political point to make.
(BTW, if she really was into showing how society views nudes as art, I think she could have made some brilliant commentary by posting the same pics with well-placed “censored” signs. I don’t disapprove of her artwork - I just don’t think it says very much.)
She did something totally legal, on her own time, out of the classroom, with the school not being identified. Any action against her is wrong.
The old slippery slope arguement - but what if in her own time she wants to campaign for weed legalisation, or the impeachment of Bush? or anything the administration didn’t agree with - so long as she doesn’t introduce into the class room this should be allowed.
Any other position is just censorship by another name.
Probably because it’s not relevant here. The pictures appear to have been taken in a non-public setting, and there is no indication that Ms. Hoover has been charged with any crime.
, I would like to present a scenario from the employer’s point of view. Knowing what I know (again, I have to emphasize that I don’t have every fact in this case- so I have to make things a little general), if I was an employer or administrator of a large organization in which my employees were responsible for taking care of kids by themselves, and that organization faced daily scrutiny by the kid’s parents and the public in general (not to mention the media, would could affect the first two), both of which had high expectations for my employees trustworthiness and good decision making skills, I would have to say that I would not be too happy with an employee who knowingly had recent nude pictures of themselves on the internet.