# Can Africa be saved? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2004, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-africa-be-saved/226214 "2004-01-26T21:08:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2004, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-africa-be-saved/226214/41 "2004-01-28T16:49:40Z")
While depressing, I’ve learned a lot from some of the posts here, and I want to thank the participants. The inequities in trade should have been part of my consideration of the problem, and I am much obliged to those who provided such illuminating cites on the subject. I think I know how I want to proceed: 1. Continue to give, but be very discriminating in where I give to: It may not be the fault of the aid organizations, but I do need to know my contribution isn’t somehow lining the coffers of some dirtbag politician. 2. Vote for someone who imposes trade reform: I don’t know how successful the next Democratic candidate would be in leveling the trade playing field, but they couldn’t do much worse than Bush. Ergo, this is another highly compelling reason to vote for the Democrat, whomever he will be. 3. Express my desire to my legislative representatives that we (and other developed nations) exert some real pressure, military if necessary, on the despots who are doing their part to ruin the continent: I am unequivocably against our essentially unilateral and blatantly self-serving actions in Iraq; but I am not a pacifist. If the international will exists to depose some of these criminals, and it came to military action, I would support that action. Enough is enough. I see no end in sight to the abuses of these monsters, and I see little chance in the forseable future that they and their ilk will not be ruling the region for generations without some sort of outside action. 4. Pave the way with education: Some might call it cultural imperialsim. I don’t care. You get to a certain point, and you have to say “wrong is wrong.” Raping babies? I’m sorry, that’s wrong. Deadly sexual irresponsibility? Wrong again. The destructive patriarchalism of Africa has to go if the region is not to commit suicide by AIDS. We can blame governments and drug companies all we like for not helping, but I think, in the case of AIDS, that’s ridiculously unfair. AIDS spread could be stopped almost cold for a fraction of the cost of antiretroviral drugs if people took some simple precautions, and exercised some restraint. Period. A man who screws around with whores and then rapes his wife does not deserve my charity or compassion. Well, here’s another good reason to get rid of Bush: Any world leader who makes lifesaving medical/family-planning aid conditional upon the abolition of abortion is not deserving of my vote, or even my human sympathy. Ideology like this kills as certainly as the sexual politics in Africa, and as far as I’m concerned, Bush has blood on his hands in many more ways than one. How’s this for a start? ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2004, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-africa-be-saved/226214/42 "2004-01-28T17:11:28Z")
**Loopydude** , those sound like a good place to start ! The question of ‘what can I do’ is one I have pondered long and hard and there’s really no simple answer. Many problems have been exacerbated by misplaced energy, people doing what they think is the right thing and actually making things worse. Problem is we usually can’t know the difference between ‘things that will help’ and ‘things that will make things worse’ until it’s much too late. I’m thinking specifically of your Point #1 about donating - some orgs are really bad, some are great, but how can you know? Your best bets are generally grassroots initiatives, run by African non-profit orgs. The Stephen Lewis Foundation (linked above) is an example - although not run by an African, it supports initiatives which are, and Mr Lewis has quite a lot of pull with the powers that be. One way that a lot of people respond to the ‘what to do’ question is by going to demonstrations against international trade institutes (eg the World Economic Forum, WTO, FTAA, Summit of the Americas etc) and waving signs, and often worse. I think this is partly a result of the frustration that a lot of us feel - there’s all this injustice going on, terrible things are happening in our names, people are dying and nobody with the power to stop it seems to be interested in trying to, etc. The effectiveness of this method of protest is very much in question, as you can see from a lot of threads on this very board, for instance. I think the key is to make it clear to N American and European politicians that _this is important to us_. We must let them know that if they get the opportunity to make a change for the better, they must do it, or face consequences from the voters. An interesting example of this is Mr Paul Martin, our newest (and as yet unelected) Prime Minister and his support for the [Tobin Tax](http://www.ceedweb.org/iirp/factsheet.htm). This is the basic idea of the tax: > [@](#): > > Currency speculators trade over $1.8 trillion dollars each day across borders. The market is huge, and volatile. > Each trade would be taxed at 0.1 to 0.25 percent of volume (about 10 to 25 cents per hundred dollars) > This would discourage short-term currency trades,about 90 percent speculative, but leave long-term productive investments intact. The currency market would thus shrink in volume, helping to restore national economic autonomy. Nations again could intervene effectively to protect their own currency from devaluation and financial crisis. Billions in revenue, estimated at $100 - $300 billion per year, would be generated. Revenue could go into earmarked trust funds to fund urgent international priorities. Paul Martin, back when he was finance minister, [supported](http://www.ceedweb.org/iirp/canadames.htm) the initiative, which would have been an enormous help to developing countries. Now that he is in power, he seems to have forgotten all about it, no doubt because most Canadians don’t seem to care about it. I wrote him a letter telling him that I cared about it and I was very disappointed that he doesn’t seem to any more. (I didn’t get a response. My heart broke.) I bring this up because it’s an example of a huge missed opportunity. Here is a chance for Canada to actually do something which will really benefit the people of third world countries, and it fell off the table because nobody was paying attention. If we started paying attention, and letting our leaders know that they can’t get away with ignoring the problem any more, they may just start to pay attention too. ---
**Author:** ![nferyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f1d935/32.png) [@nferyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nferyn)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2004, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-africa-be-saved/226214/43 "2004-01-28T17:23:12Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > … > Unfortunately no country is in a position where they can risk taking this step themselves, the consequences would be disasterous for them. Which is why it must be a unilateral, agreed decision. Until then the debtor nations will struggle on, further into the mire of poverty, fractious war, needless famine, AIDs epidemic, etc etc. > > The way out of this lies in our hands, and it will not be solved by aid packages which are currently exceeded by debt repayments. I totally agree that the African countries should be freed from the endless downward spiral of debt servicing. However this will not be very efficient if you consider the current governments in most African countries. The international diplomatic ‘mores’ requires that these goverments and their representatives are the actors with whom you need to deal, but in most cases that would just be throwing away money. Initiatives should focus on: - creating conditions in which citizens can start up their local businesses (stability, protection by the law) - setting up a system of micro credit that services individuals or small local groups (especially woman). Individuals are far more responsible that governmental entities will ever be - support local organisations that work on issues outside the official political field - trying to establish viable political representation in a political system that doesn’t mimic Anglo Saxon majority systems (proportional representation and “pilarisation” would certainly be more advisable) Niek ---
**Author:** ![notquitekarpov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@notquitekarpov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notquitekarpov)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2004, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-africa-be-saved/226214/44 "2004-01-28T17:51:25Z")
**Loopydude** , thank you for your latest post. Whilst I do not agree with everything you now intend to do it is fantastic that you have come from the despair of your OP, that all may be hopeless, to an action plan. You actually intend to do something, however small, to try to change something. You listened to some heated opposing viewpoints (and lots of pointless handbagging :rolleyes:, sorry if I contributed in any way), investigated some supporting evidence and reached a personal conclusion. It is refreshing to see a GD get a summing up like this and something positive emerge! We debated in front of you, and you at least seemed to have gained. As is the nature of GD’s the opponents slink off back to their lairs having gained less than the uncommitted, apart from the satisfaction of confirming their existing prejudices!! Guilty as charged m’lord :o ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2004, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-africa-be-saved/226214/45 "2004-01-28T19:09:00Z")
**Loopydude** –I encourage you to continue trying. This may sound odd, but I think everybody in this thread can agree with me, when I say that nothing ever got better if people quit trying. The biggest bone of contention seems to have been the issue of how much responsibility the West has for Africa’s problems. Not whether giving money can help. I believe that _individuals_ in Africa _can indeed be helped_, and I encourage you to continue to do so. I apologize for dashing off that way, my time is not my own (neither is this computer, I’m posting from work). Is there a need or desire to continue this debate? ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-africa-be-saved/226214/46 "2004-01-29T00:18:03Z")
Well, yeah, I think there’s plenty left to talk about. Maybe my ideas suck. Maybe they’re great. Maybe there are other specific things I/we ought to know. Shoot, I don’t know. I do know I’m tired of hearing about what a hell hole Africa is…I feel guilty and frustrated more and more when confronted with the information as I get older. I think the guilt part has gotta go. It’s a useless sentiment the vast majority of the time. I’d like to do something contsructive. I bet most folks here would. Maybe the most constructive thing is to butt out, but that seems a bit desperate. Knowledge is good. It provides a big part of what one needs to act appropriately, obviously. There are clearly people of all oppinions here with great knowledge, and if they feel like sharing/debating more, I’m all ears…er, eyes. ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2004, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-africa-be-saved/226214/47 "2004-01-30T19:38:19Z")
And here we have an object lesson in what I see as the biggest barrier to Africa (or any third world nation) ‘saving’ itself - apathy. If we wanted to chat about the race for the Democratic leadership, or the Hutton inquiry, or Paris Hilton, we’d have no shortages of lively threads to participate in. Africa threads always sink after we agree that the problem is huge and none of us know what to do about it. So we go about our business and, paralyzed by indecision (‘What should I do?’) and hopelessness (‘It probably won’t make much difference anyway’), we forget about Africa. Here I’ll point out that we’re really very lucky to have the privilege to ‘forget’ about Africa. It’s not our problem, really. We can live quite satisfying lives without worrying about it, and the more we think about it the more depressed we get, so why bother? Again, we are very lucky to be in this position. At least, some of us are. My in-laws are not. Their currency is worth next to nothing, their country is ruled by a madman, and although they are black Africans they fear losing their land (which is all they have) to other black Africans. My nieces and nephews are growing up in a world where just about anyone they meet could have AIDS, they are not permitted to speak their mind on just about anything, they have little chance for a successful future as there really aren’t any jobs for them, they are without a mother as she has moved overseas to try to make some foreign currency to move back, and they are exposed to endless streams of media telling them (a) all the wonderful things that exist in the world, and (b) that they will never be able to have any of it. If I sent them some money they would want to buy a Playstation. So as you can see for me the question of ‘What can I do?’ is slightly more than academic. And I don’t know how to answer it. I’ve read a whole lot of books on the subject, though, that have really helped my thinking. Let me begin, if you will indulge me … (and if not, the worst that will happen is another argument, from which someone could hopefully learn something) **Bosda** ’s point that we’re really just arguing about the role the West has played in Africa’s continued troubles is well taken, but I don’t think this is a minor problem at all. As we’ve argued above, ‘the West’ (meaning, international financial institutions, American and European corporations, etc) continues to play an active role in Africa’s ability to help themselves. They are prevented from saving up and investing by debt servicing and demands that they open up their industries to foreign investors. However, I belive that the role of the West in Africa’s marginalization is not limited to economics. Postcolonialism is the study of the relations of the West with the Third World, in a nutshell. It is a huge, sprawling, massive, complex, contradictory field which is often quite inaccessible to someone who doesn’t have the time or inclination to study it in depth. (Have a look at Homi Bhabha or Judith Butler if you don’t believe me.) One key postcolonial … ist, I guess, was the late, lamented Edward Said (pronounced sai-EED), whose book _Orientalism_ (1979) was a seminal work in the field. He basically argued that the way the ‘third world’ (defined variously as ‘former colonies’ or Africa, Latin America and most of Asia) is represented in the West has much more to do with the West than it does with any actuality of the third world. For instance, when Napolean went to Egypt, he and his troops brought back many ‘images’ of Egypt - they wrote books, painted pictures, produced descriptions etc. These images were hugely influential in the way Egypt and Egyptians were thought of in the minds of Europeans at the time, since they really had no other source of information. But keep this in mind: anyone who travels anyplace strange will have a few predictable reactions: they will be uncomfortable, they will think things are weird and strange and possibly ‘scary,’ they may have trouble relating to the people they see. And it’s these people, who may be filled with negative feelings towards Egyptians, who are _representing_ Egyptians. It would be like, for example, a Palistinian writing a Travel Guide to Israel (or vice versa) - it would not necessarily be flattering but it would _certainly_ not be accurate. Said argues that this dynamic pervades most representations of the third world (and is very self-reinforcing: if you expect to see savage brutes, then you will) in the West. Since most people don’t actually know any Africans, they have may no reason to question the view of Africans which is presented to them. We all like to think we are ‘enlightened’ and that we have surpassed these biases and prejudices and see Africans for what they ‘really’ are, but how can we? Everything we know about them (assuming we don’t know any in person) we know from representations which could themselves be filled with prejudices that we could never see, even if we looked, since we don’t have an ‘actual’ vision to compare the representations against. For me Said’s most important point is that noone has ever come up with a method to separate the scholar from his/her circumstances, ie, whenever I meet an African I will _always_ be meeting him/her as a white Canadian. I cannot escape this position I’m in. Critically, I can’t tell myself that I have an ‘accurate’ view of this African because of my position, and my 27-odd years of being subjected to views of Africans that may or may not have anything at all to do with Africans. The other key point about postcolonialism is that it’s too easy to assume that ‘the other’ (whoever that may be - Africans, psychiatric patients, Palistinians, terrorists) are one homogenous group, who have certain things in common, and whose individual differences aren’t as important as their shared identity. In other words, we stop seeing them as _people_ and see them instead as, well, Africans or psychiatric patients or whatever. A relevant example is Iraq: Bush usually refers to them as a group with simplistic shared interests (they all hated Saddam, they’re all happy he’s gone) when the actual experiences of diverse Iraqis are quite complex and often filled with internal conflict. What does this mean? It means, when you think about Africans, withhold judgements. If someone about whom you know very little is doing something that doesn’t make any sense to you, remember (a) you don’t have any idea what their circumstances are (remember, newspaper accounts are very limited), and (b) pretty much all humans everywhere share some things in common: they love their children, they want a secure future, etc. For example, as a North American we cannot understand what makes some African women want to cut up the genitals of their daughters (nor why their daughters sometimes want it too). We have to remember that there is some reason why they want to do it. I’m not suggesting that that makes it okay, just that when trying to address the problem we don’t slip into condemnation (‘you’re brutal savages, you hate your women,’ etc) but remember that they are human beings who make decisions based on what’s best for them in their circumstances. Why do they make these choices, which as far as we’re concerned is ‘bad’? What circumstances need to change in order for them to make different (better) choices? The key point for me in all of this is this: Everybody is just trying to live their life as best they can. For too many people, this often comes down to the choice between the least of a number of really terrible options. (For example, what would drive _you_ to give your life savings to a smuggler, who would pack you in the back of a tomato truck to be driven across Asia, with the faint hope of arriving in England, where you’re going to be marginalized as an ‘asylum seeker’? Well, if we see people who do this as ‘freeloading weasels’ there’s no answer to that question. But if we see them as people making choices, we realize that things would have to be pretty flippin’ bad at home for them to take that risk for such little return.) Again it is a privilege for us to not have to think about this: we never have to make the choice, for example, which child to feed and therefore allow to live. We never have to make the ‘choice’ to abandon our family - never to see them again - to move overseas, so that we can send money home to them. Now, back to Said: _Orientalism_ is a fantastic book but quite academic. (Although the introduction is definitely worth a read.) His later work _Covering Islam_ doesn’t address Africa, rather Islam, but it’s a fantastic way to get the feel of what Orientalism means. It’s about Iran and the crisis in the 80’s, and it’s also particularly enlightening in the light of Iraq. Now, I don’t know if any of this will bring you any closer to an answer about what to _do_. But it certainly helped me sort out my thoughts and understand how complex global relations can result in the horrible things that happen. It also made me more able to evaluate what (broadly speaking) is ‘good’ for Africa and what is ‘bad.’ Another key point to remember about Africa in particular is that poverty feeds on itself. People who have nothing have nothing to lose, for one thing, so their behaviour may seem strange to those of us whose circumstances are different. They are much less able to mitigate problems like drought or disease. People who are not paid well by their employers are much more likely to be corrupt. If you have to stay home and work the fields (or tend a sick relative) you can’t go to school. Poverty means people use resources less efficiently, for example, they may wreck their soil because they can’t afford to let it lie fallow, or to not use harmful pesticides. They may sell their cow for quick cash and then not have any milk any more. They may do environmentally damaging things - sh\*t in their own beds, if you will - because they can’t afford to save if for tomorrow’s use if they have nothing to use today. So when thinking about what to _do_ you have to be aware of all these interactions, many of which we don’t understand. But these interactions can provide hope, too: for example, providing school lunches has a huge positive effect on attendance, as sometimes people don’t send their kids to school because they can’t afford to feed them any way except for scooping from the family pot. The link between educating women and slowed population growth is well documented. Cheap AIDS drugs would expand the workforce (by allowing patients to function and caretakers to find other occupations). Grassroots initiatives are great because they are location specific and they understand these interactions at the local level, which larger organizations often can’t. Well, this has been a huge post. I could keep going forever. I just don’t want us to forget about Africa because it’s too hard. Please let’s not forget about Africa just because it’s too hard. ---
**Author:** ![Uncivil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ccd318/32.png) [@Uncivil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncivil)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2004, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-africa-be-saved/226214/48 "2004-01-30T20:01:32Z")
Pretty grim reading. ☹ One point, money goes a lot further in Africa than it does in the west. So even small donations can have a significant impact, even if a large percentage of it is wasted. So donations are still worthwhile. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2004, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-africa-be-saved/226214/49 "2004-01-30T20:41:14Z")
I don’t think that the issue is " **can** Africa be saved?" as much as it is " **could** Africa **ever have been** saved?" And I believe the answer is “no”. Here are my reasons: [ul] [li]Climate: Contrary to it’s popular image, Africa is largely desert land. The Sahara is vast–vast and _growing!_ Desert “spread” is driving tribes out, turning them into beggars & refugees. And it is far from the only desert in Africa. Net economic value–near zero. [/li] The jungle regions aren’t much better. High humidity, coupled with the huge native termite population, destroys buildings, books & bridges. The Savannah looks more promising. But irrigation is impossible, due to a lack of rivers. There are few local building materials for permanent structures. [li]Insects—termites were mentioned earlier. Africa’s huge termite population borders on the fantastic. The Savannahs are almost as bad as the rainforest. These little vandals make the construction of permanent structures almost impossible, as they are destroyed overnight. The financial burden of replacement is ruinous![/li] The Guinea worm is a horrible parasirtic worm, discussed more fully in one of **Cecil Adams** ’s columns, to which I refer you. The disease carrying mosquito, & the tse-tse fly, are well known. Africa’s ants, also are destructive, just like South American Army Ants, though on a smaller scale. I’ll just say : locusts, and leave it at that. [li]Disease–not counting HIV, or Ebola, or Guinea Worm infestations (see above), but confining ourselves solely to _curable_ disease…we can’t afford it. There isn’t enough treasure, or enough doctors & nurses, in the World to deal with this.[/li][li]Tribal Conflicts–incomprehensible to the non-African world, they have resulted in genocidal attacks time after time. Whole tribal populations are refugees. If we help them return, their neighbors will begin the slaughter again, immediately after the peacekeepers leave. These hatreds have lasted for many generations, until they have become part of the trides’ _cultural identities_. How will a Jimmy Carter solve _that_?[/li][li]Lack of comprehension–AIDS education meets with laughter & ridicule. Appeals to stop poaching, as tourism brings in more cash, are ignored. The railroad lines laid down in many African nations are routinely torn up, & then melted down into agricultural tools, the spikes turned into knives (which are for sale, here in the US, BTW). Ask the vandals not to do it, & you get smiles, grins, & then they go & rip up more train track. No railroad = no economic growth. Many people in Africa cannot see benefits beyond those that directly benefit their village, clan, family, or their persons. The “big picture” is incomprehensible, and thus ignored.[/li][li]Barriers to Literacy–no native African alphabet has ever evolved, as far as we know. No native written language has evolved, as far as we know. Climate & insects destroy paper at unthinkable speed. Tribal warfare burns librarties, forces books to be abandoned, kills scholars, & forces literacy skills training to be abandoned in the quest for simple survival.[/li][/ul] These are not the products of colonialism. They are native to, and endemic in, Africa. They are not going to change. The costs are completely unaffordable. Africa is a money pit. The process would take generations, and the West’s electorate has an attention span no longer than the time it takes to get a beer during a commercial break. And $100 million of investment dough can be ripped up in the middle of the night, to be taken to a tribal blacksmith’s shop, & beaten into shovels & mattocks, to grow food that can’t be shipped to market for lack of a railroad: and turned into knives for tourists who can’t get there, because there’s no road or rail system worthy of the name. Your affordable, politically do-able, solutions to these problems? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Uncivil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ccd318/32.png) [@Uncivil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncivil)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2004, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-africa-be-saved/226214/50 "2004-01-30T21:02:55Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > I don’t think that the issue is " **can** Africa be saved?" as much as it is " **could** Africa **ever have been** saved?" > > And I believe the answer is “no”. > > Here are my reasons: [list] > … Too many ridiculous assumptions here for me to refute them all. Can you provide sources for any of your “facts” please? Climate - Africa produces enough food to feed over 99% of its population, and its population is a few times that of the USA. Its not a wasteland. Its a huge continent, there is a mix of fertile and unfertile lands. Natural resources - Vast. Nigeria has rich oil supplies. South Africa is rich in diamonds and Uranium. Disease - Hundred of millions of Africans are alive today, many of them are healthy. Lack of Comprehension - Your average African is poorly educated, but they aren’t stupid. Barriers to Literacy - Were you unaware that Egypt is an African country, and that one of the first written languages was invented there (hieroglyphics)? ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2004, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-africa-be-saved/226214/51 "2004-01-30T21:28:06Z")
Er … **Bosda** : how come Africa managed to do pretty well even with bad weather, bugs and no written language? [Ancient Africa](http://www.archaeolink.com/ancient_african_civilizations.htm) [Civilizations in Africa](http://www.wsu.edu:8000/~dee/CIVAFRCA/KANEM.HTM) A [bibliography](http://www.library.cornell.edu/africana/Library/civilization.html) of books on the subject [The Mwenemutapa](http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/CIVAFRCA/MWEN.HTM) [Great Zimbabwe](http://www.archaeology.org/9807/abstracts/africa.html) > [@](#): > > The Sahara is vast–vast and growing! Why is it growing? From [this](http://www.unccd.int/publicinfo/factsheets/showFS.php?number=2) page, you cannot say it’s ‘just happening,’ it’s nobody’s fault and there’s nothing we can do. Note particularly these parts: > [@bosda](#): > > The relatively low priority given to environmental protection often leads to poor land management decisions. - it would be difficult or impossible to put a high priority on environmental protection when subject to the kinds of scrutiny and obligations that African countries are under > [@](#): > > International economic forces can encourage people to overexploit their land. > [@](#): > > People must also adjust to … natural [climatic] fluctuations … in recent decades these strategies have become less practical due to changing economic and political circumstances, population growth, and a trend towards more settled communities. When land managers cannot or do not respond flexibly to climate variations, desertification is the result. This goes back to my point above about how all the pressures on the area are interrelated, and in circumstances of poverty people can’t mitigate the pressures the way they otherwise could. All the things you mention are hugely exacerbated by interventions by the West. > [@bosda](#): > > Insects Again, they have managed in the past. Africans know how to live in Africa (or at least they have done in the past). Western implementation of Western-style housing leaves them vulnerable to insects. > [@bosda](#): > > Disease I’d be more inclined to believe this if I had seen any evidence that ‘we’ve’ made any serious effort in this direction whatsoever. People in Africa die every day of diseases that would cost less than a buck to cure. > [@bosda](#): > > Tribal Conflicts would be much less damaging if ‘we’ would stop funding them, either by propping up dictators or by hiring armies to protect ‘our’ profits from their natural resources > [@bosda](#): > > Lack of comprehension See above re: seeing the ‘other’ as not human. They are not idiots. They are just not us. > [@bosda](#): > > Barriers to Literacy Believe it or not, it is entirely possible to have a thriving civilization without the written word (see above links re: pre-colonial Africa). Granted, it is difficult to do it in the context of a global situation where lots of others do have the written word. But again, we can’t say it’s entirely Africa’s problem. And you may also be surprised to learn that quite a lot of Africans can speak, and also read and write, in English, French, and/or Portuguese. What you don’t seem to realize is that things have been getting progressively, and exponentially, _worse_ - not since colonization but since _independence_. You ask again what my solution is: primarily, stop interfering. Remove trade barriers, drop the debt, encourage grassroots solutions instead of imposed one-size-fits-all ones. Africans are not all insect-bitten, illiterate, diseased fools, contrary to what you may think, and they can come up with solutions if we allow them to. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2004, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-africa-be-saved/226214/52 "2004-01-31T12:17:19Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > Disease–not counting HIV, or Ebola, or Guinea Worm infestations (see above), but confining ourselves solely to _curable_ disease…we can’t afford it. There isn’t enough treasure, or enough doctors & nurses, in the World to deal with this. We can afford what we wish to afford. Just as we can afford to spend billions on a war. And I don’t follow the logic that says there isn’t enough medical people in the world to treat all the people in the world. All that is lacking is the will and the training. > [@](#): > > Tribal Conflicts–incomprehensible to the non-African world, they have resulted in genocidal attacks time after time. Whole tribal populations are refugees. If we help them return, their neighbors will begin the slaughter again, immediately after the peacekeepers leave. These hatreds have lasted for many generations, until they have become part of the trides’ _cultural identities_. How will a Jimmy Carter solve _that_? This is a ridiculous argument. There is nothing special or unusual about tribal conflict in Africa. It’s exactly the same story in human history anywhere you look. Africa’s problem is that its poverty allows and encourages it to continue. > [@](#): > > Lack of comprehension–AIDS education meets with laughter & ridicule. Poverty means lack of education. The people of Africa are not stupid. (Well, not any more than anywhere else. 🙂 ) > [@](#): > > Appeals to stop poaching, as tourism brings in more cash, are ignored. The railroad lines laid down in many African nations are routinely torn up, & then melted down into agricultural tools, the spikes turned into knives (which are for sale, here in the US, BTW). “Excuse me Africa, I know you’re starving and poor, but would you mind not eating things or diverting resources to farming? It’s for your own good, you know.” Naturally railways are good, and destroying them bad. But you cannot expect people to look beyond their next meal to the bigger picture if they may not even make it through the year. No-one suggests that Africa is an easy place, particularly if we expect to export a method of Western economy to it. It may simply be the case that what works for us is never going to be the answer for them. But that doesn’t make it impossible, especially when the answer to one of the root problems already lies in our hands. The easing of Africa’s debt and poverty would go a long, long way in making a start. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2004, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-africa-be-saved/226214/53 "2004-01-31T13:20:34Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > We can afford what we wish to afford. Just as we can afford to spend billions on a war. And I don’t follow the logic that says there isn’t enough medical people in the world to treat all the people in the world. All that is lacking is the will and the training. > > This is a ridiculous argument. There is nothing special or unusual about tribal conflict in Africa. It’s exactly the same story in human history anywhere you look. Africa’s problem is that its poverty allows and encourages it to continue. > > Poverty means lack of education. The people of Africa are not stupid. (Well, not any more than anywhere else. 🙂 ) > > “Excuse me Africa, I know you’re starving and poor, but would you mind not eating things or diverting resources to farming? It’s for your own good, you know.” > > Naturally railways are good, and destroying them bad. But you cannot expect people to look beyond their next meal to the bigger picture if they may not even make it through the year. > > No-one suggests that Africa is an easy place, particularly if we expect to export a method of Western economy to it. It may simply be the case that what works for us is never going to be the answer for them. But that doesn’t make it impossible, especially when the answer to one of the root problems already lies in our hands. The easing of Africa’s debt and poverty would go a long, long way in making a start. I hardly know where to begin… Either this post is the worst example of smarmy personal dishonesty ever seen on this Board, or elementary concepts, grasped easily by any Junior High School student are beyond your grasp. (BTW–keep the painfully predictable remarks about “maybe I’ve got a greater grasp of the world than you or your HS student” to yourself. Your rhetoric is becoming tiresome & predictable.) [ol] [li]We **cannot** “afford what we wish to afford”. We cannot maintain our own infrastructure of roads & bridges, or our own educational system, or a damn sight many other things. You don’t understand why there aren’t enough doctors in the World? Since ABC 123 C-A-T seems to be beyond your grasp, I’ll spell it out for you. _Each individual doctor_ takes 10 years _minimum_ to train, more if he is to be a surgeon. Cost exceeds $100,000 per head. 99.9 % of the World’s population lacks the intellectual capacity, drive, comittment _or desire_ to become a doctor. Nurses _leave_ their profession at a rapid rate, because they get fed up, & can make much more money elsewhere. If the World’s capable people _don’t want_ to become physicians, will you force them at gunpoint? If the _existing_ physicians don’t want to go to an area of pandemic disease, live in 90 degree temperatures & 100 % humidity, will you _jail them_? If so, you are bringing back the horrors of the worst of the 20th Century’s totalitarian states.[/li][li]Why is my argument about Tribal Warfare ridiculous? Most wars are fought over resources or terrain. But Tribal Wars are fought because two groups, often identical in appearance, religion, & language, kill each other because they have always killed each other. Killing a rival tribes warrior is _still_ a way for a adolescent to be “recognized” as a man of importance in his tribe’s eyes. How is this the same as a war over who controls a certain province or a set of mineral resources?[/li][li]Charming stunt, **Futile Gesture**. Quote one sentance out of context, & try and fool everybody into believing that’s the intent of my post. Grow up.[/li] The people of Africa ridicule AIDS education because it is alien to their culture & religion. To most of Africa, AIDS is caused by supernatural forces, or is believed to be caused by evil-minded foreigners, Western or African. Trying to “educate” people into giving up their culture & religion is immoral, & may constitute a crime under international law. Here in the US, we tried to “educate” many American Indians into becoming second-class Whites, & not only did it fail, I for one am ashamed of it. > [@](#): > > Excuse me Africa, I know you’re starving and poor, but would you mind not eating things or diverting resources to farming? It’s for your own good, you know." > > Naturally railways are good, and destroying them bad. But you cannot expect people to look beyond their next meal to the bigger picture if they may not even make it through the year. If _this_ is your attitude, why do you think anybody will be willing to invest at all? All investments are for tomorrow, & there are no immediate results. Using _your_ logic, _all_ investments are useless. It can and will be sacrificed at a whim. BTW–the rails _aren’t_ being ripped up by the starving poor. The rail spikes, as I mentioned, are being forged into knives, & re-sold in the US & possibly Europe. This is being done by the most well-off people in their communities–the Village Blacksmith. [/ol] In sum, your posts reek of the view that says the Government money falls from the sky. Wrong. It is taken out of taxes, inposed on the rich, middle class & poor here at home. Every dime you spend come from somebody, & you have no moral right to take it, if the general population does not consent. As for private investors, you have no right at all to expect their money, & you are being flatly ridiculous by asking for it. Risk is high, potential returns low, & past losses are fantastic. Banks are not charities, not should they be. Private foundations have given to Africa for years, & many Western countries have sent aid. Most of it was, and still is, stolen, as mentioned in the OP. Disinterested public service is _not_ a component of most African cultures. In fact, it is a European cultural concept. Theft will therefore go on, unless you advocate imposing our cultural values on Africa by force, which I will not support. Change _will_ come, but I fear that some great upheaval will have to uproot many of Africa’s cultures & traditions first. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![swami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@swami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swami)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2004, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-africa-be-saved/226214/54 "2004-01-31T14:11:23Z")
No written language? Have you ever heard of the Ge’ez (Ethiopic) Alphabet? Latin - English, French, Italian… Ge’ez - Amharic, Tigrinya, Tigre… It is used by over 70 million People. ---
**Author:** ![swami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@swami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swami)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2004, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-africa-be-saved/226214/55 "2004-01-31T14:14:09Z")
There is over 200 letters in this [Alphabet](http://www.omniglot.com/writing/ethiopic.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2004, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-africa-be-saved/226214/56 "2004-01-31T16:54:37Z")
> [@swami](#): > > There is over 200 letters in this [Alphabet](http://www.omniglot.com/writing/ethiopic.htm). No. Introduced from the Middle East by Arab traders. ---
**Author:** ![dal\_timgar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@dal\_timgar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dal_timgar)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2004, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-africa-be-saved/226214/57 "2004-01-31T17:53:33Z")
What is saved? Unfortunately people are not rational. A child’s brain is formed growing up in an environment. Imagine if you had been born in that environment you would probably be much like those people. How do you change tens thousands of interacting people? Why is the US so screwed up with all of its obvious advantages over Africa? Can we save America? Spreading good info and ideas on the internet might have an impact. Dal Timgar > [@Loopydude](#): > > I had a rather discouraging conversation the other night with a former Peace Corps volunteer in sub-Saharan Africa. I don’t want to give away too many details, as I’m afraid, given the relatively small number of Peace Corps members recently back from that region, she could be identified. Suffice to say her job was to educate people in rural areas about AIDS/HIV, and to keeps general tabs on various “at risk” individuals, in an attempt to insure they were getting proper health care for themselves and their children. > > She said she started out loving the place, developed a love/hate sentiment, and ended up being utterly sapped of hope for the people volunteered to assist. She felt a deep sense of shame about her lost optimism, but could not escape the strong suspicion that most of the folks in her charge were “beyond help”. “Africa nearly destroyed me,” she said, “and I’m just so glad to be back here, and not there anymore.” > > She’s a very attractive woman, which got her no end of unwanted attention. That was her first and most personally threatening trouble, and she confessed to never feeling physically safe on her own. She said the level of misogyny she encountered on a regular basis strained belief, and achieved horrifying proportions when juxtoposed with the issue of sexual health. All the terrible things you may have heard, stories of infant rape (a supposed cure for HIV infection), refusal to use condoms, battery and ostracision of female AIDS sufferers (while men continued to infect with impunity), the traffic of child slaves/prostitutes…all are troubles she said she encountered first-hand. She was terribly disappointed also with female complicity in the deadly misogyny; what women there lacked in physical menace, they more than made up in emotional terrorism of those women who were branded promiscuous “AIDS whores” (or something to that effect). > > She said medicines for the sick were routinely pilfered by govt. authorities to be sold or given to those with favor. She estimated 10% or less of the money, food, and drugs meant for the masses actually made it to them; the bulk was coopted and sold on the black market, or simply destroyed to settle tribal disputes. She described the behavior of some petty chieftains towards the members of other tribes as nothing short of genocide; instead of Rawandan-style machete maiming and murdering, the “chieftains” in her region used the slower and subtler starvation and disease (most of the time). Guerilla groups would enter from across the border to rape and pilliage, stealing much needed medical supplies and food to give to their soldiers. Occasionally domestic soldiers would do the same. > > I could go on and on, but you get the idea. Her final analysis: She wasn’t sure if sending aid to Africa was a good use of resources. If she had only one bag of grain to send either to Africa or someplace else, she would send it someplace else, for the simple reason that elsewhere it would not be wasted. She described a region on a path towards willful self-destruction, and claimed she could no longer see how the developed world bore further responsibility for sub-Saharan societal pathology. With an air of almost palpalble self-reproach, she admitted she had to wonder of “colonialism didn’t help Africa more than it hurt it.” If you knew her, you would understand what a remarkable thing it was to hear this coming from her mouth. > > It made me wonder. It made me wonder a lot. What to do about Africa? Should we do anything any longer? ---
**Author:** ![swami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@swami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swami)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2004, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-africa-be-saved/226214/58 "2004-01-31T17:57:39Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > No. Introduced from the Middle East by Arab traders. You are just incorrect. Ge’ez was developed in present day Ethiopia/Eritrea and was not “Introduced” by Arab traders. Arabs never used Ge’ez. I suggest you read about the history of the area (Aksum/Axum). ---
**Author:** ![Uncivil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ccd318/32.png) [@Uncivil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncivil)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2004, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-africa-be-saved/226214/59 "2004-01-31T17:59:49Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > No. Introduced from the Middle East by Arab traders. And what about Heiroglyphics? Over 6000 years old, and developed in an African country (Egypt). ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2004, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-africa-be-saved/226214/60 "2004-01-31T18:54:44Z")
> [@swami](#): > > You are just incorrect. Ge’ez was developed in present day Ethiopia/Eritrea and was not “Introduced” by Arab traders. Arabs never used Ge’ez. I suggest you read about the history of the area (Aksum/Axum). Without wading into the rest of this debate, **Bosda** is likely roughly correct. The Ge’ez _script_ seems to have been derived from Sabaen script of southeast Arabia and have been subsequently extensively modified in Ethiopia et al. Indeed Axum was founded in part by Semitic language-speaking settlers from that region ( and it subsequently re-expanded back across the strait to establish dominance over parts of south Arabia for a time ). Amharic, Ge’ez, Tigrinya, and one or two others from that region are still classified as southern Semitic languages, I believe. None of the above, however, says anything particularly derogatory about Africa. Europe got the basis of their alphabets from Semitic sources as well. - Tamerlane [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-africa-be-saved/226214.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-africa-be-saved/226214.md?page=4)