Can Africa be saved?

[Tamerlane]

Oh, I guess I’ll make one more comment, for fear of being regarded as backing Bosda’s main point. I don’t and a search of past debates on Africa might offer some illumination on both that subtopic and my own personal take on it.

Sub-Saharan Africa does and rather more importantly did have a lot of barriers to developing in an exactly parallel manner to Eurasia. Relative isolation ( compared to the conveyor belt of Eurasia ) from global cultural diffusion, internal barriers to movement and communication, certain particular resource constraints, etc. But to extrapolate from that to the take that sub-Saharan Africa was foredoomed to poverty and misery is ridiculous. Many parts of Africa, as has been noted at least in passing, were quite prosperous and sophisticated in their own way. To argue otherwise is to argue from ignorance.

I’ve think given cites on this general topic before, but for example you could explore John K. Thornton’s works on the Kongo state.

• Tamerlane

[swami]

@Tamerlane

Without wading into the rest of this debate, Bosda is likely roughly correct. The Ge’ez script seems to have been derived from Sabaen script of southeast Arabia and have been subsequently extensively modified in Ethiopia et al. Indeed Axum was founded in part by Semitic language-speaking settlers from that region ( and it subsequently re-expanded back across the strait to establish dominance over parts of south Arabia for a time ). Amharic, Ge’ez, Tigrinya, and one or two others from that region are still classified as southern Semitic languages, I believe.

None of the above, however, says anything particularly derogatory about Africa. Europe got the basis of their alphabets from Semitic sources as well.

• Tamerlane

Tamerlane I understand your answer, but disagree with it. The ge’ez script is different from the Sabaean alphabet. While (as you claimed) Ge’ez was derived from the Sabaean script they are not the same. To quote Bosda, his claim is that Ge’ez was:

Introduced from the Middle East by Arab traders.

It wasn’t.

[Tamerlane]

swami: Oh, I getcha. We had a sematic breakdown.

Yes, I agree - Ge’ez was not introduced per se, but rather was an indigenous development with roots reaching back to south Arabia.

• Tamerlane

[Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor]

@Uncivil

And what about Heiroglyphics? Over 6000 years old, and developed in an African country (Egypt).

I stand corrected–sub-Saharan Africa.

As for the Ethiopian thing, it’s splitting hairs.
Where does “introduced from outside” begin, & “influenced by outsiders” begin?

Finally, I do not believe that change is impossible.
But where will it begin?

No, Futile Gesture, not in the hearts of sympatheic people. :rolleyes:
I mean where, geographically?

The Red Sea Coast would be a natural for trade ports, due to the Suez, but it’s a Hell of anarchy. I’m not kidding when I say that piracy & the slave trade are boom industries in Ethiopia & Somalia.

Southeast Africa has few good ports, and few resources.

South Africa is doing well, but it seems to have little intrest in developing the economies of its neighbors.

The changes in Lybia offer new possibilities in North Africa, but Sub-Saharan Africa is isolated from this area.

But Egypt has little influence in the Sudan, the Sudanese are hostile & xenophobic, & their slave trade alienates the West anyhoo. A totally closed door.

Southwest Africa is a lifeless, virtually uninhabited desert, the Namib. Nothing thrives there, not even the jackals. No possibilities here.

West Africa has resources, ports, a workforce, abundant water, lush farmland, unchecked Civil War, and Ebola outbreaks (importing things from here can make consumers nervous).

Central African society is being destroyed by AIDS. Education has proven ineffective, as cultural values tend to tilt people towards rejecting this health education. In addition, recent events resulting in Europeans having their farmland confiscated at gunpoint will rather discourage investment. No great sucesses can happen here until an AIDS cure or vaccine is developed.

The biggest barrier to change is the Africa citizens’ resistance, even hostility, to change.

[dude]

you can only help those who help themselves

africa is a mess and…its their mess

[Truth_Seeker]

Putting aside the past, Africa’s biggest problem is that it missed the important development window represented by the last forty years or so. High, sustained economic growth in poor countries has been driven by a relentless export sector lubricated by liberal foreign investment of capital and technology.

That strategy works fine when your country has a decent legal/physical infrastructure and a relatively inexpensive labour force that can add significant value to the products it produces.

But that model isn’t going to work for the vast majority of Africa. The relative value added by labour is much less than it was back in the sixties and seventies. Making, say, bicycles is labour intensive. Making laptops is captial intensive. In other words, having cheap, unskilled labour is much less of a competitive advantage in the world economy than it once was.

In Africa’s case, this trend is compounded by the lack of legal and physical infrastructure. If a company wants to make a foreign investment in Africa, they often have to do almost everything themselves, down to building roads and power plants. Apart from some extractive industries, it simply isn’t worth it. The foreign investor can go to say, Asia, and build its plant with only a fraction of the investment that would be required in Africa. Even though the cost of labour might be a bit higher, it is still much, much cheaper and yields a much higher return on investment. The sad fact is that most of Africa would not be attractive to foreign investment even if the labour was free.

There is no quick way out of this hole. Since foreign investors aren’t going to invest, it would take a massive aid program and many, many years – and this assumes stable, wise and non-kleptocratic government. This is a big, and on previous form, entirely unwarranted, assumption.

All considered, it is much more likely that Africa will fall further and further behind than begin to catch up. In any case, current policies, both in and toward Africa, are an almost universal disaster. Nothing will have even a hope of improving unless radical changes are made.

[swami]

@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor

I stand corrected–sub-Saharan Africa.

You still stand incorrect

As for the Ethiopian thing, it’s splitting hairs.
Where does “introduced from outside” begin, & “influenced by outsiders” begin?

It begins when it is widely viewed as a new alphabet. All scripts have precusors. Or is English no longer an English creation?

[Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor]

** Truth Seeker** —I’m glad you mentioned the legal infrastructure.

Doing business in the West or Asia means things like being able to sue, or effectively sue, somebody who doesn’t come through on a contract. In many places in Africa, there either is no protocol for lawsuits, or only citizens/tribal members/coreligionists can sue, or the courts simply have no real enforcement powers.

On the flip side, a government may simply sieze your factory/mine/powerplant/whatever, merely because a powerful member of the government got greedy.

swami —that particular remark wasn’t aimed at you.

[notquitekarpov]

Southwest Africa is a lifeless, virtually uninhabited desert, the Namib. Nothing thrives there, not even the jackals. No possibilities here.

(looks around him)…oh I’m living in a “virtually uninhabited desert” am I? Well, I thought it was a city with a population of 4 million, but obviously I am mistaken -and the great Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor has spoken. There being “no possibilities here” I had better pack up and leave I guess…

Really Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor I am tired of your continually demonstated ignorance, prejudice (as in “pre-judgement”) and generalisations. And dismissive bullying of other posters - Futile Gesture for one. Debate does not have to consist of point scoring and badgering and I would have though round one of this Great Debate might have told you.

To challenge some of the points in your post of 06.17 on 31st:

1. Each individual doctor takes 10 years minimum to train, more if he is to be a surgeon. Cost exceeds $100,000 per head. 99.9 % of the World’s population lacks the intellectual capacity, drive, comittment or desire to become a doctor. Nurses leave their profession at a rapid rate, because they get fed up, & can make much more money elsewhere. If the World’s capable people don’t want to become physicians, will you force them at gunpoint? If the existing physicians don’t want to go to an area of pandemic disease, live in 90 degree temperatures & 100 % humidity, will you jail them?

Healthcare is not just about doctors, let alone Western-trained surgeons at fancy western prices. In Africa fantastic progress can be made with locally trained nurses and non-professional health care workers providing wide access to advice and education on issues such as water cleanliness, baisc hygene, sexual health and gynocology. The nurse supply situation is not helped by the West stripping developing nation health sectors of trained expertise by offering them temporary work permits (c.f the UK-NHS) to bale out the developed world health sector and avoid the need to properly fund their own training programmes.

What Africa needs is be allowed to train and retain its own human resources and allocate resources to where the most good can be gained per dolar - which will not be in surgeons for a while!

2. But Tribal Wars are fought because two groups, often identical in appearance, religion, & language, kill each other because they have always killed each other.

Wars and tribal conflict thrive because the parties have so little to lose, and povety, fear and ignorance can be easily exploited. Education combined with economic growth so that have a stake in country have addressed similar issues in many other parts of the world and can and will do so in Africa.

The people of Africa ridicule AIDS education because it is alien to their culture & religion. To most of Africa, AIDS is caused by supernatural forces, or is believed to be caused by evil-minded foreigners, Western or African.

Whilst quite remarkable progress has been made in Uganda in AIDS education, basic treatment and social equality of sufferers. See http://www.who.int/inf-new/aids2.htm Again I feel you are generalising and dismissing the potential for change.

Trying to “educate” people into giving up their culture & religion is immoral, & may constitute a crime under international law.

Not sure what point you are making here but education per se will permit people to make educated choices. If delivered by local teachers why should we fear that any educational agenda will involve giving up their culture and religion? Obviously there are scandals, like Botswana’s treatment of the Kalahari indiginous peoples - upon it being realised that their land is a rich diamond resource. But in that case the government are not educating people to give up their culture - they are simply removing them from their land! Different problem - see Rule of Law.

In sum, your posts reek of the view that says the Government money falls from the sky. Wrong. It is taken out of taxes, inposed on the rich, middle class & poor here at home. Every dime you spend come from somebody, & you have no moral right to take it, if the general population does not consent.

Again you assume that foreign aid and foreign investment are the only enablers to African development. What many posters to this thread having been pleading for is simply a world trade system that gives them a chance to help themselves, perhaps at the expense of the hithertoo overly protected developed world’s farming sector.

**Truth Seeker ** meanwhile is making some powerful points that I cannot argue with, especially the importance of the rule of, and access, to law. I thought of adding that to my list of enablers for development that I first posted last week. Whilst agreeing that infrastructure development is vital I do not except that manufacturing export sector is the only way out of where we are now. Why not agricultural exports, if World Trade rules were revised to open up markets? Why would not such development also drive infrastructural development which could gradually allow the general economy to take off? You are probably correct though that much of Africa has “missed the boat” when it comes to globally competative manufacturing.

[ralph124c]

In Nigeria (one of the better-off African countries), there was a recent incident. Apparently, the WHO has been trying to wipe out polio., using vaccine supplied by the USA. Unfortunately, the local moslem Imams have been telling their people NOT TO GET VACCINATED! Their belief is that the (evil godless USA) is using the vaccine to STERILIZE moslem children!
So here is an example of the staggering stupidity of some religious leaders…in effect, they are saying to their people:
“Allah decrees that you should continue to die from polio…do not take the American’s medicine, because they are unbelievers”
If ever a case could be made about the evils of religion, this is it!
And it sums up Africa in general…the poverty and backwardness willonly disappear when people reject wilfullignorance…and that ain’t happening!

[swami]

@ralph124c

In Nigeria (one of the better-off African countries), there was a recent incident. Apparently, the WHO has been trying to wipe out polio., using vaccine supplied by the USA. Unfortunately, the local moslem Imams have been telling their people NOT TO GET VACCINATED!

While this part is fact the rest of your post seems to be just half-truths and hyperbole, as the problem does not stem from any religous belief that the USA is “Godless” or that Allah condones polio.

[nferyn]

@ralph124c

In Nigeria (one of the better-off African countries), there was a recent incident. Apparently, the WHO has been trying to wipe out polio., using vaccine supplied by the USA. Unfortunately, the local moslem Imams have been telling their people NOT TO GET VACCINATED! Their belief is that the (evil godless USA) is using the vaccine to STERILIZE moslem children!
So here is an example of the staggering stupidity of some religious leaders…in effect, they are saying to their people:
“Allah decrees that you should continue to die from polio…do not take the American’s medicine, because they are unbelievers”
If ever a case could be made about the evils of religion, this is it!
And it sums up Africa in general…the poverty and backwardness willonly disappear when people reject wilfullignorance…and that ain’t happening!

Let’s just lump everything together, shall we?

There are HUGE differences between the north of Nigeria and the south. You refer to the muslim north and the causes for the recent events actually have very little to do with religion.

After the - albeit imperfect - democratisation of Nigeria and the end of military rule, a significant shift in the power structures in Nigeria is under way. During military rule a significant amount of the income from oil (mainly from the south-east) was going to the northern part of Nigeria because the military rules were in majority northerners. After the end of military rule, two things happened:

• less money going to the north, which could be handed out to the population
• less political power to the northerners
  Without the oil money, very little internal economic development can take place in the northern Nigerian states mainly because of the generally lower literacy rate, and the environmentally harsher conditions (sahel, no possibility for cash crops, hardly good enough for subsistence farming).
  All in all the general living conditions for people in Northern Nigeria were worsening after democratisation and the rules could only maintaining their grip on power by going to a backward interpretation of Islam.
  Even though the imposition of Islam is unconstitutional in Nigeria, the federal governmant in reluctant to act against it, because the civilian government has not yet completely soldified it’s grip on power (fear for a new coup d’etat from the northern dominated military).

This example is in no way representative for Nigeria, nor for Africa. It’s only a catchy story that sells in the western press and reinforces the stereotypes

the usual BS …

Niek

[nferyn]

@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor

I stand corrected–sub-Saharan Africa.
…

Not quite. Although The Sahara did exist during the height of Egyptan civilisation, you cannot compare it to what it is now. Moreover the implicitely racist undertone (no “real” civilisation can take root in sub-saharan, i.e. “black” africa) is quite rude to say the least.

The ethnic background of population in Egypt at that time was more “black” than it currently is and one can easily argue that the Egyptian civilisation is at least partially a “black” - or would, our current reference frame, be a “sub-saharan” African civilisation.

Niek

[Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor]

@nferyn

Not quite. Although The Sahara did exist during the height of Egyptan civilisation, you cannot compare it to what it is now. Moreover the implicitely racist undertone (no “real” civilisation can take root in sub-saharan, i.e. “black” africa) is quite rude to say the least.

The ethnic background of population in Egypt at that time was more “black” than it currently is and one can easily argue that the Egyptian civilisation is at least partially a “black” - or would, our current reference frame, be a “sub-saharan” African civilisation.

Niek

Correct, but pointless.

The thread is about Africa today, & the Egyptian Classical Civilization is extinct. As is the culture of the Upper Sudan, which continued its own variation of Classical Egypt until the early Middle Ages, when changing climate & desertation destroyed its ability to feed itsself.

The written language is extinct, except for scholars. No one knows how Ancient Egyptian was truly pronounced. And the only reason it can be read today at all, is because a Frenchman re-discovered it by de-coding the Rosetta Stone.

Nobody in Africa speaks it, because nobody can speak it at all. And the only people who can even *read *are archaeologists.

You win a technical point.

[Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor]

@nferyn

Not quite. Although The Sahara did exist during the height of Egyptan civilisation, you cannot compare it to what it is now. Moreover the implicitely racist undertone (no “real” civilisation can take root in sub-saharan, i.e. “black” africa) is quite rude to say the least.

The ethnic background of population in Egypt at that time was more “black” than it currently is and one can easily argue that the Egyptian civilisation is at least partially a “black” - or would, our current reference frame, be a “sub-saharan” African civilisation.

Niek

BTW–if you’re going to call me a racist, young smartyboots, you’d better be on stronger & better grounds than this.

I said that environmental factors, such as geography, disease, climate, & insect life were unfavorable to a sub-Saharan civilization.

It is pure flaming to call me a racist. I never, at any time, implied or inferred that people of African ancestry cannot create great achievements. I see such people every day, all around me. I’m not blind.

Your straw man argument violates the policies against flaming in Great Debates. Apologize, or I go to the Mods.

[Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor]

where are you?

Your idea of Southwest Africa and mine might be different.

[nferyn]

@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor

BTW–if you’re going to call me a racist, young smartyboots, you’d better be on stronger & better grounds than this.

I said that environmental factors, such as geography, disease, climate, & insect life were unfavorable to a sub-Saharan civilization.

It is pure flaming to call me a racist. I never, at any time, implied or inferred that people of African ancestry cannot create great achievements. I see such people every day, all around me. I’m not blind.

Your straw man argument violates the policies against flaming in Great Debates. Apologize, or I go to the Mods.

I must appologise. I backtracked the argument on codified languages in the thread and indeed, you did not imply any such thing. Although I never had any intention of starting a flame, I did make an interpretation of your intentions that cannot be deduced from your remarks in this tread.

I do however disagree that ,with our accumulated knowledge, a thriving sub-saharan African society cannot be achieved.

I will post a follow up un this later

Regards,

Niek

[notquitekarpov]

@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor

Where are you? Your idea of Southwest Africa and mine might be different.

I live in Luanda, Republica de Angola, as per my public profile.

The standard usage of SW Africa embraces Namibia and Angola, and some include Botswana too. It stops at the northern/eastern borders (Congo/DRC) which is usually termed Central Africa. You ideas might be different but exclude Angola and you are left with a region of a single country.

The Namib extends into southern Angola but is by no means unproductive desert - southern Angola is excellent cattle breeding country. The Skeleton Coast strip of the Namib is indeed barren but it is a relatively narrow strip. Angola is four times the size of France and large areas of highly fertile high country farmlands. Prior to the War of National Independence, and the subsequent Cold War driven civil wars, it was a large net exporter of food to the rest of Africa, and Europe. It could be again now they have peace.

Don’t write off SW Africa, let alone a whole continent, on the basis of wild generalisations and, frankly, ignorance.

[Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor]

@notquitekarpov

I live in Luanda, Republica de Angola, as per my public profile.

The standard usage of SW Africa embraces Namibia and Angola, and some include Botswana too. It stops at the northern/eastern borders (Congo/DRC) which is usually termed Central Africa. You ideas might be different but exclude Angola and you are left with a region of a single country.

The Namib extends into southern Angola but is by no means unproductive desert - southern Angola is excellent cattle breeding country. The Skeleton Coast strip of the Namib is indeed barren but it is a relatively narrow strip. Angola is four times the size of France and large areas of highly fertile high country farmlands. Prior to the War of National Independence, and the subsequent Cold War driven civil wars, it was a large net exporter of food to the rest of Africa, and Europe. It could be again now they have peace.

Don’t write off SW Africa, let alone a whole continent, on the basis of wild generalisations and, frankly, ignorance.

[ol]
[li]I had classed you in Southern Africa, my apologies for the confusion.[/li][li]How is it possible to discuss an *entire continent * in terms *other * than generalizations? [/li][li]I don’t believe that the charge of “ignorance” is even close to being proved. Though there are one or two posters, like Futile Gesture, who view deviation from their semi-Socialist Doctrinaire as ignorance. :rolleyes: [/li][/ol]

[notquitekarpov]

BTW it is understanding that demanding apologies with the threat of “going to the mods” is itself a breach of the decorum of these Boards. You are feel to ask for an apology, if you want to report any post to the mods you are of course free to do so - so long as you do so quietly, don’t annouce the fact and sit back and wait action or otherwise. Hopefully pointing that out does not bring the Mods down on me - not trying to do your job honest!