# Can African-Americans be racist against whites? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2016, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-african-americans-be-racist-against-whites/764507 "2016-08-30T21:27:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-african-americans-be-racist-against-whites/764507/81 "2016-09-02T14:21:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’ve been saying institutional racism is in decline and uncommon. I would agree with that. > [@](#): > > Is it gone completely? I’m not sure. I think it depends on where you draw the line between a low level of institutional racism and a high level of situational racism. I am not sure of the distinction between situational racism and institutional racism. > [@](#): > > Situational racism: This is the way you treat people you have some kind of power over. > > 1. Institutional racism: This is the way society treats a group of people. If the power over people comes from one’s position in an institution, ISTM that there is little distinction. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-african-americans-be-racist-against-whites/764507/82 "2016-09-02T14:47:45Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I like that explanation. I think it’s flawed though, of the top of my head I can think of a scenario: three people of the same social level on the street, A and B see C, of ethnicity X walk by, A says to B, “all X are (insert negative stereotype)”, “sure they are” says B. They both are making prejudiced assumptions (AKA discriminating) of C on the basis of ethnicity, even if their discrimination doesn’t actually materialize into A non race related example would be that poor people can discriminate against rich people, even though they are not in a position of power over them. What does need power to happen is oppression, not discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-african-americans-be-racist-against-whites/764507/83 "2016-09-02T16:18:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I am not sure of the distinction between situational racism and institutional racism. The distinction I’ve been making is the fear of repercussions as a limiting factor. In the bad old days, white people had no concerns about facing any repercussions for discriminating against black people. They literally would pose for photographs standing next to the bodies of lynching victims. There was no fear that they might get arrested for murder. Situational racism is much milder. It’s when somebody abuses their power but is aware that their power is not unlimited. It’s when somebody acts in a racist manner but is thinking “I’ll be okay as long as nobody can prove I’m doing this.” ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-african-americans-be-racist-against-whites/764507/84 "2016-09-02T16:20:33Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > I think it’s flawed though, of the top of my head I can think of a scenario: three people of the same social level on the street, A and B see C, of ethnicity X walk by, A says to B, “all X are (insert negative stereotype)”, “sure they are” says B. > They both are making prejudiced assumptions (AKA discriminating) of C on the basis of ethnicity, even if their discrimination doesn’t actually materialize into > A non race related example would be that poor people can discriminate against rich people, even though they are not in a position of power over them. > > What does need power to happen is oppression, not discrimination. They have not discriminated yet though - they are assholes and racists, and quite possible discriminate. But at that point it is just words spoken among friends. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-african-americans-be-racist-against-whites/764507/85 "2016-09-02T19:33:59Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You don’t really have institutional power because a 13% minority has all the power of a 25% minority. The fact of the matter is that American democracy includes the concept of minority rights. The founding fathers were wary of tyrannies of the majority but only a footnote to the more obvious threat of tyranny of the majority. I meant to say “The founding fathers were wary of tyrannies of the MINORITY but only a footnote to the more obvious threat of tyranny of the majority.” ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-african-americans-be-racist-against-whites/764507/86 "2016-09-02T21:02:48Z")
If that is the definition of institutional racism you’re going by it almost exclusively favors blacks in America. Affirmative action is government sanctioned institutional racism. When a university is allowed and encouraged to admit students who otherwise wouldn’t get in based on their race that is institutional racism. When an [employer](https://youtu.be/WsvpQvPDDWs?t=89)feels they are unable to promote white males due to societal pressure to “increase diversity” that’s institutional racism. Being perceived as oppressed is actually very powerful. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-african-americans-be-racist-against-whites/764507/87 "2016-09-02T22:38:34Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > If that is the definition of institutional racism you’re going by it almost exclusively favors blacks in America. Affirmative action is government sanctioned institutional racism. When a university is allowed and encouraged to admit students who otherwise wouldn’t get in based on their race that is institutional racism. When an [employer](https://youtu.be/WsvpQvPDDWs?t=89)feels they are unable to promote white males due to societal pressure to “increase diversity” that’s institutional racism. Being perceived as oppressed is actually very powerful. Which is why the leadership of all of our highest institutions are dominated by black Americans. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-african-americans-be-racist-against-whites/764507/88 "2016-09-02T23:29:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Which is why the leadership of all of our highest institutions are dominated by black Americans. Which is why federal employees are overwhelmingly black Americans. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2016, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-african-americans-be-racist-against-whites/764507/89 "2016-09-03T00:53:25Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > Which is why federal employees are overwhelmingly black Americans. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2016, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-african-americans-be-racist-against-whites/764507/90 "2016-09-03T01:09:50Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > > [@Procrustus](#): > > > > It really is a matter of semantics. I learned in college that racism was prejudice with power. Institutional racism, I think they called it. Thus, a group without institutional power could not be racist, but could be prejudiced. > > Version I heard: Anyone can be racist, it takes power to discriminate. > > So I would say that it is easily possible for African Americans to be racist, but their opportunities to discriminate at a significant level are limited in our current society. Yep, I think this is it. Like a lot of social science concepts, the definitions of terms themselves can be highly contentious. This is not the only example - witness the endless arguments over the border between “literacy” and “illiteracy” - reading all the research, it’s difficult to not conclude that some of the researchers may be “illiterate” according to each others’ definitions. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2016, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-african-americans-be-racist-against-whites/764507/91 "2016-09-03T02:08:29Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > Which is why federal employees are overwhelmingly black Americans. According to the Office of Personnel Management, 17.8% of federal employees are black and 66.0% are white. [cite](http://www.fedweek.com/issue-briefs/workforce-demographic-breakdown-reported/) Did you get your figures from Pat Buchanan? I know he’s been claiming black people dominate the federal workforce. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2016, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-african-americans-be-racist-against-whites/764507/92 "2016-09-03T02:15:14Z")
So black workers are represented among federal workers at a slightly higher rate than their overall population. Not even close to “overwhelmingly” anything, except perhaps uninteresting. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-african-americans-be-racist-against-whites/764507/93 "2016-09-06T13:31:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Which is why the leadership of all of our highest institutions are dominated by black Americans. There are other factors as well. If you limited yourself to qualified candidates, there would be an imbalance in favor of blacks. However the pool of qualified candidates is heavily skewed in favor of whites due to socio-economic factors. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-african-americans-be-racist-against-whites/764507/94 "2016-09-06T13:45:18Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > There are other factors as well. If you limited yourself to qualified candidates, there would be an imbalance in favor of blacks. However the pool of qualified candidates is heavily skewed in favor of whites due to socio-economic factors. Do you mean “in favor of whites” in your second sentence? If not, I don’t understand. Though I think there may be factors in addition to the socio-economic that are involved. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-african-americans-be-racist-against-whites/764507/95 "2016-09-06T13:56:27Z")
No, I meant in favor of blacks. The pool of qualified candidates is skewed in favor of whites, as mentioned, but from that pool the winning candidates would be skewed in favor of blacks. To put some completely bogus numbers on it just to illustrate the concept, imagine that the population is 12% black and 70% white, then the pool of qualified candidates for “leadership of all of our highest institutions” might be 2% black and 90% white. From that group, the actual people in these leadership positions would be 3% black and 85% white. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-african-americans-be-racist-against-whites/764507/96 "2016-09-06T17:05:08Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > No, I meant in favor of blacks. > > The pool of qualified candidates is skewed in favor of whites, as mentioned, but from that pool the winning candidates would be skewed in favor of blacks. > > To put some completely bogus numbers on it just to illustrate the concept, imagine that the population is 12% black and 70% white, then the pool of qualified candidates for “leadership of all of our highest institutions” might be 2% black and 90% white. From that group, the actual people in these leadership positions would be 3% black and 85% white. Okay, but why? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-african-americans-be-racist-against-whites/764507/97 "2016-09-06T17:12:42Z")
The point drewder was making was about affirmative action, and that’s probably the biggest part of it (whether government mandated - directly or indirectly - or PR-driven, as the case may be). There are probably other factors as well, though, as part of the mix, not all of which cut the same way. ---
**Author:** ![Kiante\_83](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9fc29f/32.png) [@Kiante\_83](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiante_83)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-african-americans-be-racist-against-whites/764507/98 "2016-09-08T14:41:10Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > How should I know? I know what I see now. > > If I had to guess, I would say the dynamic been gradually building ever since the Civil Rights movement won over the public in the 50s and 60s. (Though it would vary a lot based on place and situation.) I couldn’t tell you when the tipping point was reached. > > In any event, what I’ve stated in this thread is not at all contingent on the answer to that question. Yea, the Civil Rights movement didn’t win over the public. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 was actually filibustered for 83 days before it was passed. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-african-americans-be-racist-against-whites/764507/99 "2016-09-08T14:46:36Z")
> [@Kiante\_83](#): > > Yea, the Civil Rights movement didn’t win over the public. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 was actually filibustered for 83 days before it was passed. Those aren’t mutually exclusive. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-african-americans-be-racist-against-whites/764507.md?page=4)