# Can all music be represents by the current Musical Notation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [May 23, 2003, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-music-be-represents-by-the-current-musical-notation/177010 "2003-05-23T12:40:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-music-be-represents-by-the-current-musical-notation/177010/21 "2003-05-27T06:38:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kunoichi \* > \*\*As for the other idiosyncracies of the GHB, it uses a different scale from the “classical” major and minor, I believe it’s the mixolydian scale (will do a bit of research here…). I have seen some 'pipe music written with the sharps (F# and C#). Of course, as you mention, it doesn’t matter either way since we can only play certain notes. > > Actually, the way my teacher (and his teacher and HIS teacher) learned was aurally, so the written music didn’t really matter. IIRC, in the olden days, the “only” way to learn GHB was by ear, so the modern written notation is just a (surprisingly good, given the circumstances) way of fitting the music into a visual format. \*\* Mixolydian mode, I believe - also referred to as a pentatonic scale - but I’m definitely getting out of my depth at this point! Yes, I’ve seen the occasional piece with sharps on it, but they seem to be the exception, not the rule. My instructor still sings [canntaireachd](http://www.bagpipejourney.com/articles/dictionary.shtml#anchor_C) when teaching me a tune. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-music-be-represents-by-the-current-musical-notation/177010/22 "2003-05-27T11:27:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Mixolydian mode, I believe - also referred to as a pentatonic scale - but I’m definitely getting out of my depth at this point! Not quite. [Mixolydian](http://www.banjolin.supanet.com/mixolydian_mode.htm) mode is just a major scale shifted up five degrees. So G Mixolydian is the same as C major, but going from G to G instead of C to C. (A major scale, BTW, is the same as [Ionian](http://www.banjolin.supanet.com/ionian_mode.htm) mode, and a minor scale is the same as [Aeolian](http://www.banjolin.supanet.com/aeolian_mode.htm) mode. The rest of the modes, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian and Locrian are less commonly used but great fun nonetheless. Pentatonic scales, as the name would suggest, consist of five tones and are directly related to the 8-note scales. A major pentatonic scale takes the first, second, third, fifth and sixth notes of a regular major scale. So [C major pentatonic](http://www.jazclass.aust.com/scamap.htm#c) is C, D, E, G, A. You can have [minor pentatonics](http://www.jazclass.aust.com/scamip.htm) (and pentatonics in any other mode) by taking the same five notes from the corresponding 8-note scale. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-music-be-represents-by-the-current-musical-notation/177010/23 "2003-05-27T17:18:48Z")
**friedo** , as I say, I’m getting out of my depth, but I was relying on this passage from [The Pitch and Scale of the GHB](http://www-personal.umich.edu/~emacpher/pipes/acoustics/pipescale.html): > [@](#): > > So what scale is A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G, A ? If the G were G#, then this would be an A Major scale, however the chanter G is close to G-natural. One can describe this scale as “a major scale with a flattened 7th or leading tone”. This is also known as the Mixolydian mode. The same scale steps can also be obtained on the piano by starting on G and playing all the white keys up to the next G. Isn’t that saying the same thing as this passage from the link you gave? > [@](#): > > This pattern of intervals: T-T-S-T-T-S-T is the characteristic of the Mixolydian mode, and is a Major mode similar to the Ionian but has a flattened 7th note. You don’t get a flattened 7th just by shifting C Major up 5 degrees, do you? The C major and G major both use T-T-S-T-T-T-S, don’t they? [I’m not trying to be contrary, BTW - I’m stretching the limits of my music theory, and would appreciate any guidance you can give.] ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-music-be-represents-by-the-current-musical-notation/177010/24 "2003-05-27T20:43:58Z")
I’m really reaching back into the depths of my memory, but I think the various modes correspond to what you would get if you start on a note and leave out the sharps and flats (i.e. press all the white keys on the piano). So, if you start at C, you get a major scale, if you start at A, you get a minor scale. If you start at G (G-Major has F-sharp in it) and leave out F-sharp, you’ll get a flattened 7th. So, C-major and G-major both have same sequence, but C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C has a different set of tones and semitones from G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-music-be-represents-by-the-current-musical-notation/177010/25 "2003-05-27T20:51:55Z")
Yes, that site says the same thing as I was saying, it just approaches it from a different direction. One definition of Mixolydian mode is just “major scale with a flatted 7th tone” but I prefer “major scale shifted up five notes.” Same thing. Example: C major is C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C. Flat the 7th tone, and you have C, D, E, F, G, A, Bb, C. That is C Mixolydian. It has the same intervals as a major scale except the 7th degree is minor instead of major. The intervals in a major scale go T-T-S-T-T-T-S, whereas in Mixolydian, they go T-T-S-T-T-S-T. Now, shift C Mixolydian _down_ five degrees, and you get F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E, F. That goes T-T-S-T-T-T-S, the pattern of a major scale, and is indeed F major! > [@](#): > > You don’t get a flattened 7th just by shifting C Major up 5 degrees, do you? The C major and G major both use T-T-S-T-T-T-S, don’t they? Of course C Major and G Major are exactly the same intervalwise. But you don’t get G Major when shifting C up five degrees. (Think “transpose” when I say shift.) You keep the same notes in the base scale, but start it in a different place. So if we take C major, which is plain C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C, and shift it up five degrees, we get G, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, which follows the pattern T-T-S-T-T-S-T. That’s G-Mixolydian. G Major would be G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, G, which goes T-T-S-T-T-T-S. Does that help? If not, let me know. I love this subject. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-music-be-represents-by-the-current-musical-notation/177010/26 "2003-05-27T21:19:41Z")
(Last post was directed at **Mr. Piper**.) **RitterSport** : > [@](#): > > I’m really reaching back into the depths of my memory, but I think the various modes correspond to what you would get if you start on a note and leave out the sharps and flats (i.e. press all the white keys on the piano). So, if you start at C, you get a major scale, if you start at A, you get a minor scale. If you start at G (G-Major has F-sharp in it) and leave out F-sharp, you’ll get a flattened 7th. > > So, C-major and G-major both have same sequence, but C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C has a different set of tones and semitones from G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G. You are right about C major and A minor both having no black notes. If you take C major (or any major scale) and shift it up six degrees, (so you’re playing the exact same notes, but starting on A instead of C) then you get A minor. Which is also called A Aeolian. But you don’t want to just eliminate sharps and flats when figuring out a mode. If you ever learned the [Circle of Fifths](http://www.mikemurphy.net/GuitarLessons/lessons/lesson18.htm), remember that each of the 12 major keys has a distinct number of sharps or flats. A given mode will have the same sharps and flats as its parent key. The confusion arises in determining what a parent key is. The simple definition of “mixolydian” is that it’s a major scale with a flatted seventh. So if you say C Mixolydian, you think “OK, that’s C major but with Bb instead of B.” But I prefer the more precise definition that it is a major scale rotated up five degrees. If you go by that, then you say, “OK, C Mixolydian is the same as F Major, but starting on C.” So that way you can think of C Mixolydian as related to F Major instead of C Major. The advantage of this (and this is purely IMHO) is that instead of having to remember what every single mode does to a scale (remember, there are seven modes all told) you only have to figure out how many degrees to rotate a scale you already know. Examples: Ionian mode: Same as a major scale. Dorian mode: Major scale with minor 3rd and 7th. Or a major scale starting on the second degree. Phrygian mode: Minor 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 7th. Or a major scale starting on the third degree. Lydian mode: Augmented 4th. Or a major scale starting on the fourth degree. Mixolydian mode: Minor 7th. Or a major scale starting in the fifth degree. Aerolian mode: Minor 3rd, 6th, and 7th. Or the same as a minor scale. Or a major scale starting on the sixth degree. Locrian mode: Minor 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 7th and diminished 5th. Or a major scale starting on the seventh degree. ---
**Author:** ![kunoichi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4da419/32.png) [@kunoichi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kunoichi)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-music-be-represents-by-the-current-musical-notation/177010/27 "2003-05-27T22:51:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Northern Piper \* > [B My instructor still sings [canntaireachd]([http://www.bagpipejourney.com/articles/dictionary.shtml#anchor\_C](http://www.bagpipejourney.com/articles/dictionary.shtml#anchor_C)) when teaching me a tune. \*\* Aaah… so that’s what that’s called. My teacher sings it, he never really taught it to me. Instead, he says “make up your own vocables.” Too bad I’m used to solfeggio (do re mi etc.) and that just gets weird with the odd scales.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-music-be-represents-by-the-current-musical-notation/177010/28 "2003-05-28T20:40:29Z")
Note that some instruments have their own notation: drums have a staff like notation but it differs from standard notation quite a bit. Guitars have systems like tabs and chord notations. An intermediate guitarist will glance over the tab/chords for a song to learn it but rely mainly on ear to learn the song. There are just too many effects that are possible. A good guitarist doesn’t need the notation. But there is no standard notation for playing the guitar with your tongue while it is on fire. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-music-be-represents-by-the-current-musical-notation/177010/29 "2003-05-29T13:22:19Z")
My tongue? Ow! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-music-be-represents-by-the-current-musical-notation/177010/30 "2003-05-29T15:33:47Z")
That depends: Is it the tongue or guitar that’s on fire? ---
**Author:** ![chukhung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e79b87/32.png) [@chukhung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chukhung)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-music-be-represents-by-the-current-musical-notation/177010/31 "2003-05-29T16:44:35Z")
I found the following site that has a nice FAQ about Indian music for Western musicians, [http://www.chandrakantha.com/faq/w\_musician](http://www.chandrakantha.com/faq/w_musician). Note, however, that I know very little about Indian music and nothing about musicology, so I have no idea how accurate the information on that site is. > [@](#): > > However, since the classical music of both North and South is so heavily dependent upon improvisation, then a strict notation is somewhat irrelevant. Indian classical music resists notation for the same reasons that Western jazz music resists it. > > Musical notation is somewhat analogous to taxidermy. Indian music tied to notation has the same relationship to the actual performance as a stuffed animal does to a living one. > … > As of the time that I am writing this, I am unaware of any music available in staff notation. There are however, a lot of music in traditional Indian notations. > … > Concepts such as major or minor are totally irrelevant to Indian music. Every mode is an entity in its own right. > … > The absolute pitch at which a performance is rendered is merely a practical detail and is not considered of any musical significance. Whatever pitch the performers agree upon is the key. It will vary from artist to artist, and even the same artist may change it according to his/her mood. ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-music-be-represents-by-the-current-musical-notation/177010/32 "2003-06-03T10:15:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RitterSport \* > \*\*I don’t know the answer to your first two questions, but regarding your third, there are 12 semitones in an octave. I believe that they are related by perfect fifths – if you start with C and move up by a fifth to G (possibly the first harmonic, but I’m not positive), then move by another fifth to D, and so on, you’ll eventually go through all 12 semitones and get back to C. It’s called a circle of fifths. \*\* Depends. A perfect fifth has a frequency ratio of 2:3. A perfect octave has a frequency ration of 1:2. Pythagorus noticed that if you go up by fifths, dropping back by octaves, you will make a circle that ends on a pitch just slightly above the note you started on. The difference is (3/2) to the twelfth power divided by 2 to the seventh, which is very close to one, but not quite. That’s called the Comma of Pythagorus. Distributing the Comma throughout the octave is temperament. Equal temperament means that each step has the same ratio. Bach’s Das Wohltemperirte Clavier, the Well-Tempered Clavier, may have been written for temperament, but possibly an unequal temperament. It seems that there is disagreement on that. If you sound a single note on an instrument, it is seldom a pure note. The harmonics of the note also appear, in various fashions. So, we’re used to hearing those harmonics sounded together, and perhaps that is why it sounds good to us. (It is a value judgement, the sound of music is in the ear of the beholder.) The second and third harmonic, sounded together without the original note, is a perfect fifth. A perfect (not-tempered) major chord has the ratios of 4:5:6, so the 4:6 ratio is the perfect fifth, but notice that the three notes also bear the same relation to each other that the fourth, fifth, and sixth harmonic do. In other words, a major chord is just three harmonics of a single note, starting two octaves (fourth harmonic) above it. ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-music-be-represents-by-the-current-musical-notation/177010/33 "2003-06-06T16:06:02Z")
At the risk of being gauche, I would like to return to the first two questions originally posted by **DeepField** (the third has already been answered). Didn’t the Chinese or Hindus (or Mayas, Incas, etc.) develop their own notation? Can their music, or every other “non-occidental” music be written down without loosing anything? Per Gardner Read in his book _Musical Notation_, eastern Asians do indeed have their own notational system. Alas, he provides no examples. He does thoroughly explain Western notation, including a lot of “advant-garde” stuff like quarter-tones. Great book if you’re interested in the subject. As any composer will tell you (if you can get him to stop yanking out his hair long enough to chat), it is impossible to write out _any_ music without losing something along the way. Sure, you can show exact pitches and approximate durations, but the subtleties of articulation and small time changes just can’t be shown. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-music-be-represents-by-the-current-musical-notation/177010/34 "2003-06-08T08:25:19Z")
[Here](http://www.chandrakantha.com/articles/indian_music/lippi.html) is a page with some examples of various kinds of Indian notation. ---
**Author:** ![CyberHippy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@CyberHippy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberHippy)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-music-be-represents-by-the-current-musical-notation/177010/35 "2003-06-10T21:27:36Z")
To answer the third question (well, actually, to confuse you to no end) there are _many_ other notes in the spectrum, check out [http://www.justintonation.net/](http://www.justintonation.net/) for a description of the most bizarre approach to tuning I’ve ever witnessed: “JUST INTONATION is any system of tuning in which all of the intervals can be represented by ratios of whole numbers, with a strongly-implied preference for the smallest numbers compatible with a given musical purpose.” I play with a pedal-steel player who has dabbled in Just Intonation ([www.b0b.com](http://www.b0b.com)) and all I can say is… w0w… ---
**Author:** ![BytopianDream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9de0a6/32.png) [@BytopianDream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BytopianDream)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-music-be-represents-by-the-current-musical-notation/177010/36 "2003-06-11T20:19:19Z")
Neandertals used diatonic scales. So I think certain sounds and sound combinations are pleasing as a matter of anatomy. [http://www.webster.sk.ca/greenwich/fl-compl.htm](http://www.webster.sk.ca/greenwich/fl-compl.htm) Of course, all such things as harmony go out the window when talking about Country music. Those guys hit 12 different keys in one song and fumble through 78 microtones in two beats. So some people do find disharmony pleasing. ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_Mexico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f6c823/32.png) [@Roger\_Mexico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_Mexico)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-music-be-represents-by-the-current-musical-notation/177010/37 "2003-06-17T01:18:41Z")
What about Harry Partch? > **[Harry Partch](https://www.harrypartch.com/)** > > News and information about the American composer Harry Partch and his instruments. Or the pygmies who put a june bug between their lips and modulate it like a jew’s harp? ---
**Author:** ![bronto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@bronto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bronto)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-music-be-represents-by-the-current-musical-notation/177010/38 "2003-06-23T23:05:07Z")
The phrase _just intonation_ merely means tuning on pure rational intervals rather than irrational compromises, e.g. 4:5 rather than 1:2\*\*(1/3). The Just Intonation Network makes a fetish of numeric _notation_; that’s partly so that exotic intervals, like 4:7, can be written without awkward workarounds (and without bias in favor of those with standard letter notation). If I ever learn to play guitar (know any teachers in southern Alameda County?) I want to get a Meantone fretboard. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-music-be-represents-by-the-current-musical-notation/177010.md?page=1)