# Can all these hispanic people I see really be here legally? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 15, 2007, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-these-hispanic-people-i-see-really-be-here-legally/388099 "2007-01-15T18:29:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-these-hispanic-people-i-see-really-be-here-legally/388099/21 "2007-01-16T14:37:30Z")
[QUOTE=Bobotheoptimist] Well, I don’t know about your neck of the woods, but around these parts “they” were here first. A good hunk of the state was part of Mexico not long ago, so they really didn’t need permission to come here. Some of the poorest parts of Colorado were settled by Spanish long ago, so economic status isn’t an indicator of anything. Doesn’t apply to you Easterners, I guess. You and your “we used to be part of England” rubbish. 🙂 I usually assume that people speaking another language are probably at least bilingual, and thus a step ahead of me since I don’t speak nuttin but Americanese. I have no problem with my tax dollars teaching the kids English or paying for their immunization, but I’m not in favor of throwing open the border. Wouldn’t take much to swamp the system, like maybe is happening in LA and etc. Complicated issue. [/QUOTE] The OP is from Northern Virginia, where the racial categories have traditionally been White & Black, so any change in demographics is upsetting. Texas has always been diverse & is getting moreso (especially here in Houston.) I’d like the immigration laws changed to reflect reality better. (When my grandparents got here from East Galway, they just had to pass physicals to get in–no immigration lawyers needed.) A contributor to a current Social Security thread complains that when the Baby Boomers retire, there won’t be enough workers to pay their SS, due to declining birth rates. Gosh, where could we get some people willing to work? And workers with legal status would stand up for better wages & working conditions. I do find the thread title a bit coy. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-these-hispanic-people-i-see-really-be-here-legally/388099/22 "2007-01-16T19:39:23Z")
I live in an area in suburban Atlanta that has also seem a huge influx of Hispanics. The remarkable thing is not just the extent, but the _speed_ with which the transformation has taken place. Just within the past three or four years, virtually every retail business in each strip mall along the nearest major road has disappeared and been replaced by taquerias, carnicerias, bars offering _billares_, check-cashing joints (“_CAMBIAMOS CHEQUES_!”), etc. Not that strip malls are any great cultural artifact that requires preservation, but the monolothic nature of the change, and the way it seemed to happen overnight, is a bit jarring. We also have day laborers congregating on corners and in nearby parking lots, which was not the case until a couple of years ago. Also a huge increase in pedestrian traffic along the roads and across intersections (which, like many in metro Atlanta, were definitely _not_ designed to be pedestrian-friendly). Unfortunately the increased foot traffic has meant a lot more people dropping trash along the road, which is ugly. Plus, I’ve already had a couple of close calls where someone ran across the road in front of my car at night, and I now drive with the lingering fear that someday I’m going to hit some poor immigrant and find myself financially, if not legally crucified. Emotions and passions run high on every side of this issue, but I think it is possible to try to make objective observations about the real, visible impact that is being made to some cities and neighborhoods by large numbers of immigrants locating there over a very short time period. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-these-hispanic-people-i-see-really-be-here-legally/388099/23 "2007-01-16T21:21:54Z")
[QUOTE=Shagnasty] Business owners want them to be here as much as the bleeding hearts do but for slightly different reasons. [/QUOTE] Can you explain why the bleeding hearts want them? Because I can’t figure out why Republicans are ostensibly against illegal immigration, and Democrats are soft on the whole issue. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-these-hispanic-people-i-see-really-be-here-legally/388099/24 "2007-01-16T23:16:59Z")
[QUOTE=Bobotheoptimist] Well, I don’t know about your neck of the woods, but around these parts “they” were here first. [/QUOTE] Think about it harder and you realize the Native Americans were here first. Can any of these white people I see really be here legally? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-these-hispanic-people-i-see-really-be-here-legally/388099/25 "2007-01-16T23:58:55Z")
[QUOTE=pizzabrat] Can you explain why the bleeding hearts want them? Because I can’t figure out why Republicans are ostensibly against illegal immigration, and Democrats are soft on the whole issue. [/QUOTE] Typical to bleeding heart ways, they look at many illegal immigrants as being worthy of whatever help and open arms we can give them regardless of how they got here. Bleeding hearts tend to look at individuals rather than overall issues and illegal immigration is well suited to that. About a year ago, Massachusetts had a bill under debate deciding whether or not young illegal aliens should be eligible for in-state tuition for the state colleges and universities. I listened to a heated discussion with one side being some self-professed social liberals who championed that they should get it. Their only point was that they were here and they proved themselves worthy by trying to go to college regardless of how that happened. The end. I am finding it hard to believe you can’t believe that viewpoint exists. I am definitely not a bleeding heart yet I find the idea that illegal aliens that have done well deserve our admiration and support. Lots of people do. I said earlier that no truly powerful group opposes illegal immigration as long as it supports their purposes. Liberals want to be the beacon of light and people of all political orientations like a good made, gardener, or other cheap, hardworking set of employees. That includes a large percentage of both Republicans and Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-these-hispanic-people-i-see-really-be-here-legally/388099/26 "2007-01-17T00:08:24Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] Think about it harder and you realize the Native Americans were here first. Can any of these white people I see really be here legally? [/QUOTE] Taken literally, that line of thinking won’t take you far. Native Americans consist of many, many groups who came to North America in many waves over tens of thousands of years. There isn’t ONE group of people that lay ownership to the “first” title to this day. Furthermore, those populations blended with each other and then blended with the white population so there is no group that lays Godly ownership with the land over all others. I am part Native American as far as I know so I need to know how to do the math on how much of this claim I am entitled to. In human terms, nations are all that matters and we have the U.S., Canada, and Mexico around here. Hardly anyone wants open borders yet few want rigidly sealed borders so the situation festers in this conspiratorial, inefficient mess. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-these-hispanic-people-i-see-really-be-here-legally/388099/27 "2007-01-17T00:09:49Z")
[QUOTE=Shagnasty] I am finding it hard to believe you can’t believe that viewpoint exists. I am definitely not a bleeding heart yet I find the idea that illegal aliens that have done well deserve our admiration and support. Lots of people do. [/QUOTE] I temporarily forgot about that viewpoint. I was thinking about it in a more political way i.e. we have a sizable domestic population of impoverished, unemployed people who can’t complete with a virtually limitless flow of labor with a bottomless asking price. That sounds like something Democrats should be worried about and that capital owners should relish. ---
**Author:** ![No\_Me\_Ayudes\_Compadre](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/no_me_ayudes_compadre/32/5224_2.png) [@No\_Me\_Ayudes\_Compadre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/No_Me_Ayudes_Compadre)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-these-hispanic-people-i-see-really-be-here-legally/388099/28 "2007-01-17T01:24:54Z")
Coming in late to the thread, I hope not too late to engage. **Nyctea scandiaca** , in general I don’t really understand the way your OP is written. Has someone said “What illegals?” Or why is the question framed as how they could possibly be legal and how the hay did they get their visas? I ask honestly. [QUOTE=nyctea scandiaca] If most of them are illegal, how do they get here, and how do they do the many tasks in life which require a SSN - like get a drivers license, buy and register a car\*, rent an apartment (you are usually subject to a credit check), etc. [/quote] As noted, many illegal immigrants simply crowd up housing, or rely on legal contacts to make arrangements. As for banking, state services, etc., I recall that some jurisdictions were toying with the idea of allowing foreign credentials (such as the Mexican consular ID) to be used in public affairs. Also, many state and local authorities simply don’t care about an individual’s legal status. I recently met someone who emigrated illegally from Mexico to Illinois and works as a night janitor in a public school. He was stopped for a broken tail light upon leaving work, and unable to produce proper identification (i.e. driver’s license) his car was impounded and he walked home. The next business day he had someone get his car. But the gist of the story is that the local police corps didn’t question or address his immigration status. [QUOTE=nyctea scandiaca] However, being a young white woman myself, I have been the subject many many many times of cat-calls and various other stares and comments from these guys. I used to be the type of person who would make eye contact, smile and say hi to strangers as we passed, but in these situations, that only gets me way too much unwanted attention. [/quote] Unwelcome catcalls, stares and comments probably aren’t uncommon forms of attention from laborers of any race or national origin, and also probably have little to do with your own race. That said, I’m sorry you feel put upon or singled out. [QUOTE=nyctea scandiaca] On other thing that warrants mention is that with the hispanics, come the extremely violent hispanic gangs. MS-13 is one such gang growing in the N.Va. area, with members recently going on trial for a brutal gang rape, and using a machete to chop off a rival’s hand. [/quote] Hispanics don’t have a monopoly on crime or vicious criminals. Sure, if you read the local paper’s police blotter, you see lots more Spanish-sounding names than you did 20 years ago. But that’s just a function of the demographic itself. When the Italians started to arrive en masse, they were singled out for bringing their own brand of street crime. Same goes for every influx of migrants, foreign and internal alike–e.g. the N.O. displaced, the Okies, etc. In any case, when a horrific crime is committed by white folk, it probably doesn’t cause concern for all the whites seen around. **Pizzabrat** , what is the size of the population of impoverished and unemployed persons who would be employed if not for the supply of illegal labor? ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-these-hispanic-people-i-see-really-be-here-legally/388099/29 "2007-01-17T02:09:32Z")
[QUOTE=No Me Ayudes Compadre] **Pizzabrat** , what is the size of the population of impoverished and unemployed persons who would be employed if not for the supply of illegal labor? [/QUOTE] Of course I wouldn’t be able to say for sure, but the demand for all of the jobs that illegal immigrants fill wouldn’t suddenly disappear if they weren’t here. ---
**Author:** ![No\_Me\_Ayudes\_Compadre](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/no_me_ayudes_compadre/32/5224_2.png) [@No\_Me\_Ayudes\_Compadre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/No_Me_Ayudes_Compadre)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-these-hispanic-people-i-see-really-be-here-legally/388099/30 "2007-01-17T03:10:49Z")
I don’t know either, but I think the approach isn’t to say whether a job needs to be filled when its current occupant vacates it, but rather to determine the current fate of the person who would have otherwise filled it. For example, assuming without conceding that illegal immigrants have cornered the job market as carpet factory workers in Georgia, poultry processors in Arkansas, grape pickers in California, hotel housekeeping staff in Texas, etc., by their willingness to work below prevailing wages or their mere presence creating a glut of labor, they have displaced others who are presumibly local resident citizens. Are there statistics showing a rise in public aid rolls in the affected areas, and if there is one, is it correlated to an influx of illegal workers? I don’t know either way myself, but an absence of such a correlation would negate the assertion that illegals do in fact render the incumbents jobless. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-these-hispanic-people-i-see-really-be-here-legally/388099/31 "2007-01-17T06:24:30Z")
[QUOTE=pizzabrat] Of course I wouldn’t be able to say for sure, but the demand for all of the jobs that illegal immigrants fill wouldn’t suddenly disappear if they weren’t here. [/QUOTE] Absolutely not. But there isn’t a magical pool of legal workers to fill it, either. Inner-city youths wouldn’t suddenly rush to become day laborers if all the illegals disappeared tomorrow. The jobs available in the poorest areas of the United States are generally bad, but the jobs you’re talking about are much, much worse. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-these-hispanic-people-i-see-really-be-here-legally/388099/32 "2007-01-17T08:23:55Z")
[QUOTE=pizzabrat] I temporarily forgot about that viewpoint. I was thinking about it in a more political way i.e. we have a sizable domestic population of impoverished, unemployed people who can’t complete with a virtually limitless flow of labor with a bottomless asking price. That sounds like something Democrats should be worried about and that capital owners should relish. [/QUOTE] I agree with what Shagnasty had to offer, but he left one thing out. Perhaps the biggest thing: votes. Hispanics are the fastes growing population in America. History says most of them will go to the Dems. The Reps just want to do better than they have. That, and as I said earlier, keep their big business patrons supplied with a steady stream of cheap labor. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-these-hispanic-people-i-see-really-be-here-legally/388099/33 "2007-01-17T09:23:58Z")
[QUOTE=nyctea scandiaca] Where I live, in the Northern Virginia area, there is a huge number of hispanic people. There are certain areas [of Alexandria, Arlington and Fairfax that are primarily hispanic neighborhoods (mainly because the housing is cheap). [/QUOTE] OMG. What will you ever do? [QUOTE=nyctea scandiaca] Increasingly, when I go out and about, like shopping at the Target or Kohl’s or wherever, the majority of people I see are hispanic, and are speaking only Spanish. [/QUOTE] How dare they?!!! How will Target and Kohl’s ever survive? I fear for their livlihood! [QUOTE=nyctea scandiaca] Also, when I drive through certain areas, such as Annandale or Bailey’s Crossroads, I see groups of hispanic men gathered on every single corner. I am talking groups of 4, 6, 8 or more men, just standing or sitting on the side of the road, at every corner. They are presumably day laborers waiting for jobs, but clearly if they are standing around during the middle of the day in great numbers, there must not be enough jobs to go around. [/QUOTE] OMG!!! 8 Hispanic men together? Just standing on the side of road!!! Call Homeland Security. I bet they’re trying to bomb the World Trade Center instead of working! After all, isn’t that what YOU would do? Man, I’m really scared. [QUOTE=nyctea scandiaca] So that leads me to believe that the majority of the people I am seeing are illegal immigrants. But how can it be that there are so many? How do they manage? How does one rent housing, get a bank account, or get a job without a social security number? I mean, are there really that many employers hiring illegal workers? [/QUOTE] They come here because they’d rather be poor, unemployed, and untreated medically in a foreign country where everyone says they’re the bane of society. Wouldn’t you do the same thing? ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-these-hispanic-people-i-see-really-be-here-legally/388099/34 "2007-01-17T11:54:33Z")
[QUOTE=guizot] 8 Hispanic men together? Just standing on the side of road!!! Call Homeland Security. I bet they’re trying to bomb the World Trade Center instead of working! After all, isn’t that what YOU would do? Man, I’m really scared. [/QUOTE] Sarcasm aside, **nyctea scandiaca** isn’t talking about 8 Hispanic men standing together on the side of the road. She’s talking about over a hundred day laborers converging on any pickup truck that comes within half a block of some specific 7-11 parking lots. This is a matter of legitimate concern for all parties involved, and saying so is not an indicator of racism or jingoism. ---
**Author:** ![BMax](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bmax/32/4267_2.png) [@BMax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMax)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-these-hispanic-people-i-see-really-be-here-legally/388099/35 "2007-01-17T16:10:45Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] Absolutely not. But there isn’t a magical pool of legal workers to fill it, either. Inner-city youths wouldn’t suddenly rush to become day laborers if all the illegals disappeared tomorrow. The jobs available in the poorest areas of the United States are generally bad, but the jobs you’re talking about are much, much worse. [/QUOTE] I’m a native-born US citizen and I worked lots of jobs that are currently dominated by illegal immigrants. Landscape gardener, grounds/building maintenance, janitor, fruit picker, painter, framer, roofer. I did that kind of work in my teens, 20s & early 30s when I was in great physical shape and undereducated. I was working poor, rented the cheapest rooms I could find and had no health care insurance. Sure, there are people who would say that this kind of work is below them, but the work got done by native-born US citizens before there was such a huge influx of illegal aliens. The thing is that native-born citizens won’t do that kind of work for the same low pay as an illegal alien. It used to be that framing was a good way for an undereducated-but-in-good-shape guy to earn a good wage if he was willing to work hard. I remember 10 years ago earning $10.00/hour as a framer. Other guys on my crew with more experience were earning $13.00/hour. Now that construction is dominated by illegal aliens the wage for a framer is still $10.00/hour and you can forget about earning more than that. You can be easily replaced by 5 other guys who will work for much less. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-these-hispanic-people-i-see-really-be-here-legally/388099/36 "2007-01-17T16:24:01Z")
[QUOTE=Shagnasty] Taken literally, that line of thinking won’t take you far. Native Americans consist of many, many groups who came to North America in many waves over tens of thousands of years. There isn’t ONE group of people that lay ownership to the “first” title to this day. Furthermore, those populations blended with each other and then blended with the white population so there is no group that lays Godly ownership with the land over all others. I am part Native American as far as I know so I need to know how to do the math on how much of this claim I am entitled to. [/QUOTE] It’s not as specific as a math question or a “which tribe” question. As far as I am aware, only one group said “this land is ours, not yours” and then started making laws about who else could come to it. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-these-hispanic-people-i-see-really-be-here-legally/388099/37 "2007-01-17T18:54:52Z")
[QUOTE=guizot] OMG. What will you ever do?How dare they!!! How will Target and Kohl’s ever survive? I fear for their livlihood!OMG!!! 8 Hispanic men together? Just standing on the side of road!!! Call Homeland Security. I bet they’re trying to bomb the World Trade Center instead of working! After all, isn’t that what YOU would do? Man, I’m really scared.They come here because they’d rather be poor, unemployed, and untreated medically in a foreign country where everyone says they’re the bane of society. Wouldn’t you do the same thing? [/QUOTE] Chill out guizot. Where did I ever say I had any problem with seeing a lot of hispanic people at Target or whatever? I didn’t. I just made a factual observation. Don’t make reactionary assumptions and don’t you DARE try to imply that I am racist. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-these-hispanic-people-i-see-really-be-here-legally/388099/38 "2007-01-17T19:00:21Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] It’s not as specific as a math question or a “which tribe” question. As far as I am aware, only one group said “this land is ours, not yours” and then started making laws about who else could come to it. [/QUOTE] I would point out that virtually every square inch of land on the globe has a similar history. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-these-hispanic-people-i-see-really-be-here-legally/388099/39 "2007-01-17T19:18:34Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] I would point out that virtually every square inch of land on the globe has a similar history. [/QUOTE] Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Caffeine.addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-these-hispanic-people-i-see-really-be-here-legally/388099/40 "2007-01-17T20:16:24Z")
[QUOTE=Krokodil] Sarcasm aside, **nyctea scandiaca** isn’t talking about 8 Hispanic men standing together on the side of the road. She’s talking about over a hundred day laborers converging on any pickup truck that comes within half a block of some specific 7-11 parking lots. This is a matter of legitimate concern for all parties involved, and saying so is not an indicator of racism or jingoism. [/QUOTE] A hundred day laborers may be a bit of an exaggeration but it is fairly accurate. I remember getting gas with a friend of mine in a moving truck and at least five guys came and asked us if we needed some laborers. This was near the U-Haul rental place on Columbia Pike. I would hazard a guess that most of the folks described by the OP are indeed illegal immigrants. Probably not all of them since a portion would be covered by NACARA and the younger ones may have been born here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-these-hispanic-people-i-see-really-be-here-legally/388099.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-all-these-hispanic-people-i-see-really-be-here-legally/388099.md?page=3)