# Can America Learn From Other Countries **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326 "2013-05-25T16:38:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/21 "2013-05-25T23:00:02Z")
Well… you could start by adopting the metric system! (I mean, what’s so great about Burma and Liberia? Come on, join the Rest of the World! :D) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/22 "2013-05-26T00:38:42Z")
> [@Ignotus](#): > > Well… you could start by adopting the metric system! > > (I mean, what’s so great about Burma and Liberia? Come on, join the Rest of the World! :D) When the Metric Uprising begins and those meters and grams and liters that you trusted and let into your homes turn on you - then we’ll see who has the last laugh. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/23 "2013-05-26T00:44:39Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > The Europeans are all so wise and enlightened. We have much to learn from them. We’ve already got the Native Americans, the New Agers, the hippies, the elves, the Vulcans, the Jedi, the Oompa-Loompas, the magical negroes, and the manic pixie dream girls for wisdom and enlightenment. So we don’t really need the Europeans. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/24 "2013-05-26T02:07:25Z")
Gotta admit, the Canadians have been pretty awesome across the board for the last couple decades. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/25 "2013-05-26T02:39:28Z")
Uh oh, Germany is now more popular than Canada! > **[BBC poll: Germany most popular country in the world](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22624104)** > > A poll in 25 countries for the BBC World Service suggests Germany is the most favourably viewed country in the world. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/26 "2013-05-26T03:10:56Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > We’ve already got the Native Americans [snp] If Europeans settled North America, I’m sure they would have been much kinder to the Native Americans than the Americans were. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/27 "2013-05-26T03:12:08Z")
America is a nation made up of foreigners. So we know how much those other countries suck! ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/28 "2013-05-26T03:40:25Z")
Good grief…really? 😛 > [@](#): > > Can America Learn From Other Countries Dude, seriously…get a grip. Do you think that America sprang out of the ether? Where do you think this country came from? Do you believe we invented democracy and that our system of government was created out of whole clothe? > [@](#): > > I have just been upbraided on another thread for supporting a European approach to Crime and Criminals. You got the wrong message out of it then. Basically, as in this thread, you come across as superior and condescending. Yeah, that IS a European trait (and one we Americans have learned quite well from our superior European brethren and sistren across the big pond), and you do it so well too. Basically, no one expects you to NOT support the approach to Crime and Criminals (why the caps, btw?) that you are familiar with and comfortable with. It was the whole throwing it Americans faces that rankled, especially since it’s a bit of an apples to orangutans comparison between the US and the UK. We have states that are bigger than your whole country. No offense, and not trying to come across all superior and condescending or anything like that, dontchsee? 😉 But seriously, the part you fail to grasp is that we do things our own way here. I know…it’s not as good as the way you do it, in your opinion. But don’t you see the irony in your attitude? I certainly do. > [@](#): > > I was told that I was wasting my time posting this ‘on an American Board’. By posting all earnestly about the angst your criminal justice system has wrt the anonymity of a dude that murdered three children and suppress your press from being able to comment or give information about it is going to sort of strike Americans as a bit ludicrous, especially since (to us) the obvious answer is just to freaking give the dude in question an identity change, if you really feel the civilized thing is to turn him loose and not warn anyone about it. > [@](#): > > I was educated in the US and return regularly (I shall be back next month) and one impression I took away was the difference between the American Exceptionalist view of the world (God’s Own Country, Love it or Leave it, All other countries really wish they were us, We are best at everything in the world) and non-super-powers where there is greater awareness of how things are done differently in nearby countries of similar or differing types, and more tolerance for such differences. The European mindset is quite open to differences in methods of carrying out similar tasks within a country, and often learn quickly from each other; none none feels that they have the single answer (except swivel eyed Tories). Well, yes…that’s why you guys are so superior to us. And, of course, having been to both the UK and the mainland, why you guys feel you are superior to the mainland…and they feel they are superior to you. Etc. Etc. Gets your nickers in a bit of a bunch when we do the same thing, ehe? (this is my one allowed ‘ehe’ this month, but I couldn’t resist) > [@](#): > > I believe that this is worth discussing as anything that helps people understand difference without threat is good in my opinion That’s nice…and fairly ironic, since you seem bent on coming across all superior and condescending about it. But, what the hell…if you just want to ask ‘Can America Learn From Other Countries’ (especially our superior European friends), the GQ answer is…of course. Further, we DID…many times. And specifically, much of our system was adopted and/or stolen from YOUR FREAKING SYSTEM. You know…Revolutionary War? Colony? Any of that stuff ring a bell? Since then, you’d be hard pressed to NOT see all the stuff we adopted, incorporated or stole from our British pals. But, here’s the thing chief…we took the stuff WE wanted and liked, and adopted that. We aren’t a clone of you, nor of the mainland Euros…we are a melting pot of all of you. Brits, Irish, Germans, French…hell, even the Belgians and freaking Spanish, gods help us…and all the rest. And all the folks from Asia. And Africa. The Middle East. The Pacific Rim. The odd Inuit and folks from Siberia too. We are a compilation of ever nation, with odds and ends mixed in from all of them. Yeah, you guys were a global empire in your day, but you remained British. We started off as British, but along the way all the rest mixed in and we became Americans, a mixture of all. I know it’s hard for you and others on this board to accept it, but we ARE different than any other country on earth, with a different outlook and view point. > [@](#): > > Or is this an American Board for Americans? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/29 "2013-05-26T06:41:51Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > **Pjen** , the entire premise of the thread in question is that your system is the correct one and all other are wrong - or at least, you seem to imply this from your tone. Why do you expect posters to respond any differently? > > Besides, if you didn’t want to criticize the British system, why did you start the thread in the first place? It was a discussion of the whole system of Punishment using a particularly difficult case where the balance between rule of law and emotion pull was exquisite. It was you that made it an international disagreement by your ill considered riposte. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/30 "2013-05-26T06:43:43Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > I don’t think there was anything implicit about it in that thread. Per Pjen, the UK is the humane society dedicated to a moral standard we less-advanced cowboys here in America reject. That was not what I said. What I said was that our system of punishment is less aggressive than yours. Similarly those of most of Western Europe are less aggressive than the UK. Interesting facts to discuss would you not think. Especially when you compare relative serious crime levels in that constellation of cases. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/31 "2013-05-26T06:47:39Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Good grief…really? 😛 > > Dude, seriously…get a grip. Do you think that America sprang out of the ether? Where do you think this country came from? Do you believe we invented democracy and that our system of government was created out of whole clothe? > > You got the wrong message out of it then. Basically, as in this thread, you come across as superior and condescending. Yeah, that IS a European trait (and one we Americans have learned quite well from our superior European brethren and sistren across the big pond), and you do it so well too. > > Basically, no one expects you to NOT support the approach to Crime and Criminals (why the caps, btw?) that you are familiar with and comfortable with. It was the whole throwing it Americans faces that rankled, especially since it’s a bit of an apples to orangutans comparison between the US and the UK. We have states that are bigger than your whole country. No offense, and not trying to come across all superior and condescending or anything like that, dontchsee? 😉 But seriously, the part you fail to grasp is that we do things our own way here. I know…it’s not as good as the way you do it, in your opinion. But don’t you see the irony in your attitude? I certainly do. > > By posting all earnestly about the angst your criminal justice system has wrt the anonymity of a dude that murdered three children and suppress your press from being able to comment or give information about it is going to sort of strike Americans as a bit ludicrous, especially since (to us) the obvious answer is just to freaking give the dude in question an identity change, if you really feel the civilized thing is to turn him loose and not warn anyone about it. > > Well, yes…that’s why you guys are so superior to us. And, of course, having been to both the UK and the mainland, why you guys feel you are superior to the mainland…and they feel they are superior to you. Etc. Etc. > > Gets your nickers in a bit of a bunch when we do the same thing, ehe? (this is my one allowed ‘ehe’ this month, but I couldn’t resist) > > That’s nice…and fairly ironic, since you seem bent on coming across all superior and condescending about it. But, what the hell…if you just want to ask ‘Can America Learn From Other Countries’ (especially our superior European friends), the GQ answer is…of course. Further, we DID…many times. And specifically, much of our system was adopted and/or stolen from YOUR FREAKING SYSTEM. You know…Revolutionary War? Colony? Any of that stuff ring a bell? Since then, you’d be hard pressed to NOT see all the stuff we adopted, incorporated or stole from our British pals. > > But, here’s the thing chief…we took the stuff WE wanted and liked, and adopted that. We aren’t a clone of you, nor of the mainland Euros…we are a melting pot of all of you. Brits, Irish, Germans, French…hell, even the Belgians and freaking Spanish, gods help us…and all the rest. And all the folks from Asia. And Africa. The Middle East. The Pacific Rim. The odd Inuit and folks from Siberia too. We are a compilation of ever nation, with odds and ends mixed in from all of them. Yeah, you guys were a global empire in your day, but you remained British. We started off as British, but along the way all the rest mixed in and we became Americans, a mixture of all. I know it’s hard for you and others on this board to accept it, but we ARE different than any other country on earth, with a different outlook and view point. > > 😛 Thank you for demonstrating quite clearly what the OP was about. BTW I am extremely critical of the UK system of punishment, advocating a more Western European approach with considerably less harsh sentences and conditions and considerably increased rehabilitation and resocialization. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/32 "2013-05-26T07:43:11Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Uh oh, Germany is now more popular than Canada! > > [BBC poll: Germany most popular country in the world - BBC News](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22624104) I must admit, the Germans have improved their image a bit since 70 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/33 "2013-05-26T10:18:23Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > I don’t think there was anything implicit about it in that thread. Per Pjen, the UK is the humane society dedicated to a moral standard we less-advanced cowboys here in America reject. > [@Pjen](#): > > That was not what I said. What I said was that our system of punishment is less aggressive than yours. Similarly those of most of Western Europe are less aggressive than the UK. Here, let me help you (with emphasis added): > [@Pjen](#): > > Which is a failure of rule of law and justice for the US. The state owes protection to the individual- that is part of the social contract. > > In the UK the Police are responsible for keeping the peace- if they allow riots to happen, they are open to being sued for failing in their role! If a prisoner at risk was released into the community without a suitable protection plan, the Probation and police services would be open to being sued. > > It is called a humane society. > [@Pjen](#): > > I do believe that the European sensitivities on these issues are more humane and more acceptable than the US consideration of human beings as objects to be killed or abandoned. It’s a moral thing. Any of this ringing a bell? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/34 "2013-05-26T10:48:44Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Here, let me help you (with emphasis added):Any of this ringing a bell? All factual I am afraid. A society should protect its weak and not cast any single person to mob attack. If you cannot see that, you must have a very strange moral compass. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/35 "2013-05-26T11:20:20Z")
Riots. Now that’s an interesting subject because in Sweden the police are practicing a policy of non-interference with the rioters. Is Britain more forceful in stopping riots? If so, that speaks well of them. There’s nothing humane about letting rioters run around with impunity and destroy peoples’ livelihoods. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/36 "2013-05-26T11:47:19Z")
Ever heard of the Riot Act? The English seem have an unusual fear of angry mobs (unlike the French, who often [romanticize](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Eug%C3%A8ne_Delacroix_-_La_libert%C3%A9_guidant_le_peuple.jpg)them). It seems as though this peculiar obsession colors their legal code to no small degree. One wonders what will happen if the British lose control of their own people. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/37 "2013-05-26T12:31:45Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Ever heard of the Riot Act? > > The English seem have an unusual fear of angry mobs (unlike the French, who often [romanticize](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Eug%C3%A8ne_Delacroix_-_La_libert%C3%A9_guidant_le_peuple.jpg)them). It seems as though this peculiar obsession colors their legal code to no small degree. > > One wonders what will happen if the British lose control of their own people. I was referring to ‘The Mob’ in non-British terms- the Mob or the Hoi polloi go back to classical times. Society begins with every person their own law make, law enforcement officer, and punisher- vengeance and feuding. The Rule of Law supersedes that and reserves criminal response to the state. When I say that the Rule of Law controls the mob, I mean that if the common person takes justice into their own hands, they will be met with the full force of the law for both their assumption of powers reserved to the State and the crimes they committed doing that. In the US it may be difficult (or DAs may be reluctant to) bring successful criminal charges against unpopular released criminals, but the record here seems to be that once the mob is empanelled on a jury, they too deplore individual vigilante action. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/38 "2013-05-26T12:43:57Z")
I understand and agree with the principles you’ve stated. However, your assessment of the probability of mob action seems to be different than that of Americans - you think that it is likely that the mob will take action, and they think that it is unlikely. Conversely, they believe that the probably of the recidivism on behalf of the released convict is high, while you seem to believe that it is much lower. Obviously, these assessments are influenced by your countries’ different cultures. Could you agree that different societies have different perceptions and priorities, and therefore, by necessity, require different laws? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/39 "2013-05-26T13:00:33Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Obviously, these assessments are influenced by your countries’ different cultures. Could you agree that different societies have different perceptions and priorities, and therefore, by necessity, require different laws? You mean the different Anglophone cultures? Because, from my vantage point (and that of many others) there is little to no appreciable difference between the countries and their “cultures”. The laws of the US are based upon English common law after all. Now, differing _public policy_, I can agree with. The UK is more circumspect about locking people up than the US. The reason is that it costs a hell of a lot more in the UK and building more and larger prisons is not really an option. Therefore the various jurisdictions of the UK are more willing to consider alternatives to imprisonment. At the same time, English, Scottish and N Irish judges are far less deferential of the executive than US judges which means that some downright ridiculous legislation is interpreted narrowly. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/40 "2013-05-26T13:17:06Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > You mean the different Anglophone cultures? Because, from my vantage point (and that of many others) there is little to no appreciable difference between the countries and their “cultures”. The laws of the US are based upon English common law after all. First of all, while American law may be based on English law, laws evolve a lot in 250 years. Second of all, laws and their implementation are always a reflection of their societies, and British society, in many ways, is very different from American society. For instance, take the matter of mobs - America, like France, sees mob action as part of its founding myths, and therefore is more forgiving toward it; the UK, on the other hand, has no such founding myth. As the British see it, nothing good ever came from the people taking the law into their own hands. Americans will tell you otherwise. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326.md?page=3)