# Can America Learn From Other Countries **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326 "2013-05-25T16:38:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/41 "2013-05-26T13:18:13Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > You mean the different Anglophone cultures? Because, from my vantage point (and that of many others) there is little to no appreciable difference between the countries and their “cultures”. The laws of the US are based upon English common law after all. > > Now, differing _public policy_, I can agree with. The UK is more circumspect about locking people up than the US. The reason is that it costs a hell of a lot more in the UK and building more and larger prisons is not really an option. Therefore the various jurisdictions of the UK are more willing to consider alternatives to imprisonment. > > At the same time, English, Scottish and N Irish judges are far less deferential of the executive than US judges which means that some downright ridiculous legislation is interpreted narrowly. I do not know your cultural background but mine is jointly US and UK and I can assure you that they are truly two countries separated by a common language. The troubles that each side gets into by assuming that they share a common culture are manifold. The US certainly took the Common Law Ethic and developed it in their own way. Similarly the Law in the UK has developed differently in the last 250 years. The cultures have diverged in a similar fashion. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/42 "2013-05-26T13:20:08Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > All factual I am afraid. > > A society should protect its weak and not cast any single person to mob attack. > > If you cannot see that, you must have a very strange moral compass. No, those are opinions, the ones I actually quoted you saying (not how you’ve recast them here, in a dishonest attempt to frame it as a self-evidently obvious notion). But that doesn’t matter, because I haven’t offered an opinion either way regarding your assertions, so my moral compass isn’t relevant. I do agree we started on an issue of facts. I said you explicitly asserted that the U.K. was a more humane and moral society, with regard to these particular policies and relative to us less-advanced Americans. I offered no opinion as to whether or not I agreed with this sentiment, I merely pointed out you said it. You denied it. I showed the words that you yourself actually posted. See the difference? What you’re doing now would be called “dodging the question” because it’s clear you were wrong. Glad I could help you see the light, and no need to thank me. Seriously, though, it’s now clear to me what you’re up to, and I think a number of people have already gotten your number. For someone with such stated affection for “reasoned debate,” your standards for yourself seem a little more flexible. Rewriting history, dodging the actual point made, sadly shaking your head at your disappointment in others with what seems to me to be obvious, well, let’s call it provocation, etc. I’m not taking the bait, and I’ll try to take a mental note for future reference regarding what kind of a poster you are. That’ll save time. Anyway, have fun. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/43 "2013-05-26T13:54:00Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > First of all, while American law may be based on English law, laws evolve a lot in 250 years. > > Second of all, laws and their implementation are always a reflection of their societies, and British society, in many ways, is very different from American society. For instance, take the matter of mobs - America, like France, sees mob action as part of its founding myths, and therefore is more forgiving toward it; the UK, on the other hand, has no such founding myth. As the British see it, nothing good ever came from the people taking the law into their own hands. Americans will tell you otherwise. Errrrr…the foundation of the current British constitutional system is based upon “people taking laws” into their own hands.Cromwell and the Glorious Revolution for instance. Even after that, the various changes in political rights came in large part due to agitation, the reform acts for instance. So while you basic thesis of differences might be valid, I would also state that you choose a thoroughly poor example. As for laws bit, I will have to answer below. [QUOTE=Pjen] I do not know your cultural background but mine is jointly US and UK and I can assure you that they are truly two countries separated by a common language. The troubles that each side gets into by assuming that they share a common culture are manifold. The US certainly took the Common Law Ethic and developed it in their own way. Similarly the Law in the UK has developed differently in the last 250 years. The cultures have diverged in a similar fashion. [/QUOTE] I am Pakistani. Who was trained as a Barrister in England. The point is that while the specifics and minitue of American laws may be different the system; based upon precedent, adversarial court proceedings, seperation of powers, public trials etc are essentially unchanged in substance. I can understand and follow US laws perfectly, hell I can even sit for the NY Bar Exam. This is not the case with French and German laws. Indeed the US constitution as passed in 1789 is a lot more like what the British constitution of the time was, unlike the much more specifically United Provinces of Holland inspired Articles of Confederation. Finally, I think with respect that you might have a bit more of a warped as an outsider who has lived in the UK and spent time in the US might not.The differences are those of flavour not substance. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/44 "2013-05-26T14:06:58Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Errrrr…the foundation of the current British constitutional system is based upon “people taking laws” into their own hands.Cromwell and the Glorious Revolution for instance. Even after that, the various changes in political rights came in large part due to agitation, the reform acts for instance. So while you basic thesis of differences might be valid, I would also state that you choose a thoroughly poor example. I disagree - both Cromwell and the Glorious Revolution were cases of the legislative body disposing of the king; in other words, they were conflicts between two different branches of the same government. Britain has never had a true popular revolution. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/45 "2013-05-26T14:19:12Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I disagree - both Cromwell and the Glorious Revolution were cases of the legislative body disposing of the king; in other words, they were conflicts between two different branches of the same government. Britain has never had a true popular revolution. Then by that standard, 1776 was the representatives from various legislative bodies disposing of the King, not a true proper revolution. Come to think of it, so was the 1789-1792 events. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/46 "2013-05-26T14:29:31Z")
Good point. Still, I suspect that the British don’t perceive their historical events in question to be true popular uprisings, in the same sense that the Americans and the French perceive theirs. Let’s get an actual Englishman here and ask him. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/47 "2013-05-26T14:52:18Z")
[QUOTE=Pjen] Thank you for demonstrating quite clearly what the OP was about [/QUOTE] Oh, it was my pleasure. Sadly, it doesn’t look like any of it got through. > [@](#): > > BTW I am extremely critical of the UK system of punishment, advocating a more Western European approach with considerably less harsh sentences and conditions and considerably increased rehabilitation and resocialization. Let’s try this a different way. Why do you think that the approach of Western Europe™ (which comprises multiple countries doing things in multiple ways, btw) would work just as well for you in the UK as it does, purportedly, for the Western Europeans™? Do you think that the UK is exactly like Western Europe™ and that what they have would integrate perfectly with you? Do your citizens WANT to adopt the ‘approach’ of their Western European™ neighbors? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/48 "2013-05-26T17:15:35Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I disagree - both Cromwell and the Glorious Revolution were cases of the legislative body disposing of the king; in other words, they were conflicts between two different branches of the same government. Britain has never had a true popular revolution. Well there was that Peasant’s Revolt back in the 14th century but it didn’t exactly go anywhere. > [@AK84](#): > > Then by that standard, 1776 was the representatives from various legislative bodies disposing of the King, not a true proper revolution. Come to think of it, so was the 1789-1792 events. There are those who argue that the American Revolution was not a true revolution. After all, the people who were in power before the revolution were still in power after the revolution. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/49 "2013-05-26T17:34:59Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I was educated in the US and return regularly (I shall be back next month) and one impression I took away was the difference between the American Exceptionalist view of the world (God’s Own Country, Love it or Leave it, All other countries really wish they were us, We are best at everything in the world) You need to look up what American Exceptionalism means because the above definition is not it. > [@](#): > > The European mindset is quite open to differences in methods of carrying out similar tasks within a country, and often learn quickly from each other; none none feels that they have the single answer (except swivel eyed Tories). Quite often when an American lumps Europe into one big group someone comes along to politely remind him or her that the particular continent in question is made up of individual countries with their own language, culture, history, governments and even political issues. I’m not convinced there’s a European mindset. > [@](#): > > Or is this an American Board for Americans? I’ve always thought of it as an American board that happens to have a decent number of people from other places who post here. The problem with a lot of Europeans who like to suggest how American can do things is that they don’t really understand how America works. They think they know all about America but the knowledge they possess is often superficial. They don’t understand how the Federal government works, the relationship between the Feds and state governments, the culture, the cultural differences between regions or our history. The knowledge they have about the United States is gleaned from news reports and the entertainment industry.\* So sometimes we get tired of someone saying “Why don’t you just do it X way because it works over here?” Well, we’re not you. We have a different culture, a different history and even our government functions differently from yours. What works in Texas might not work in Wyoming. What works in the Netherlands might not work in the United States. And it doesn’t help when some Europeans go on about how barbaric or crazy the United States is. I’m not proud of this but I can’t help but smirk a bit about the recent riots in Great Britain, France and now Sweden after hearing from Europeans about how racist we are in the United States and the social justice they enjoy in western Europe. \*: Certainly there are Europeans who are well informed about American culture, history, politics, etc., etc. just as there are American experts on Great Britain, Germany, or France. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/50 "2013-05-26T18:21:51Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > A society should protect its weak and not cast any single person to mob attack. Except as necessary, you know. To insure a good harvest. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/51 "2013-05-27T01:00:11Z")
Inflated pride in one’s own country is probably a common trait, and it’s certainly true that America has very much to be proud about. Yet, one is often disappointed in Americans’ ignorance, especially since the U.S. is the leader in information and globalization. As one example, during the vote-counting problem in 2000 an Englishman mentioned in a message board that in his country they’d recount the ballots by hand. An American replied “That’s easy for you to say, coming from a small country. Do you have any idea how many people live in Florida?” :smack: Similarly, many Americans regard comparison with other countries on matters like healthcare as off-limits. (I thought it was interesting that when Michael Moore finally pinned Charlton Heston down on the question of gun violence, Heston defended U.S. guns based on a large number of “ethnic people” in the U.S. or some such phrasing – the interview ended almost immediately after that. 😛 ) > [@adaher](#): > > I prefer the US’s approach to crime. It’s gotten results. Crime is down. Crime is up in many parts of the EU. Several Dopers have already commented on this amazing statement, but it’s too glaring an example of ignorance to pass up. (With the glaring disparity in crime rates, a slight _reversion to the mean_, if that’s what adaher refers to, is to be expected.) The U.S. has a higher crime rate than any country in Western Europe, despite incarcerating at seven times the rate of France. U.S. murder rate is more than four times France’s rate. (When these incarceration rates were compared in a recent thread, one Doper made a peculiar and nonsensical argument that U.S. incarcerated _less_ than Europe.) > **[List of countries by intentional homicide rate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#By_country)** > > The list of countries by homicide rate is derived from United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC) data, and is expressed in number of deaths per 100,000 population per year. For example, a homicide rate of 30 out of 100,000 is presented in the table as "30", and corresponds to 0.03% of the population dying by homicide. The reliability of underlying national murder rate data may vary. Only UNODC-vetted data is used in the main table to maintain consistency. In some cases, i Homicide rates ... > **[Crime Index by Country 2025](https://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp)** > **[List of countries by incarceration rate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate)** > > This is an alphabetical list of countries and some dependent territories and subnational areas which lays out the incarceration rate of each. > The data below is the latest available at the World Prison Brief (WPB) at the time the data was copied here. See the individual WPB country and subnational area pages for more info on data, dates, and much more. WPB notes this: "As it is not possible to obtain meaningful comparative data on numbers of children in custody in different countries, we do not... > [@Dissonance](#): > > Speaking of which, any comment on where this inherent European superiority comes from seeing as most Americans are of European ancestry? 😕 Does **Dissonance** think cultural, social and poitical differences have a strong racial component? > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > When the Metric Uprising begins and those meters and grams and liters that you trusted and let into your homes turn on you - then we’ll see who has the last laugh. If the U.S. switches to metric, it will mean the terrorists have won. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/52 "2013-05-27T02:28:11Z")
When **Pjen** keeps going on about the history of the U.S., I have to laugh and wonder if he’s aware of the history of his own country. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/53 "2013-05-27T02:29:20Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Yet, one is often disappointed in Americans’ ignorance, especially since the U.S. is the leader in information and globalization. As one example, during the vote-counting problem in 2000 an Englishman mentioned in a message board that in his country they’d recount the ballots by hand. An American replied “That’s easy for you to say, coming from a small country. Do you have any idea how many people live in Florida?” :smack: But AFAIK the UK _doesn’t_ really have any equivalent to a Florida-wide election. In Florida in 2000, 6 million people voted. I don’t think there’s ever been a single race in Britain with that many ballots to count. The London mayoral elections are probably the biggest, and there were only about 2 million ballots in 2012. ETA: Actually, the two nation-wide referendums had a lot more ballots. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/54 "2013-05-27T03:20:23Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > If the U.S. switches to metric, it will mean the terrorists have won. Shit, if the British ever completely switch to metric it will mean that Hell is frosty. I’m enjoying watching a Brit, a Pakistani, and an Israeli, all of whom have spent time here, discuss the US as they see it. It’s so melting-potty. However, as for, “Can America Learn From Other Countries,” all I can say is… [not safe for work.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZdJRDpLHbw) ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/55 "2013-05-27T03:42:28Z")
It seems to be going the opposite way. Other countries are getting fatter and more fundamentalist. Now you just need for profit healthcare, horrible reality TV, and millions of soul destroying strip malls. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/56 "2013-05-27T06:26:57Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > You need to look up what American Exceptionalism means because the above definition is not it. > > Quite often when an American lumps Europe into one big group someone comes along to politely remind him or her that the particular continent in question is made up of individual countries with their own language, culture, history, governments and even political issues. I’m not convinced there’s a European mindset. > > I’ve always thought of it as an American board that happens to have a decent number of people from other places who post here. > > The problem with a lot of Europeans who like to suggest how American can do things is that they don’t really understand how America works. They think they know all about America but the knowledge they possess is often superficial. They don’t understand how the Federal government works, the relationship between the Feds and state governments, the culture, the cultural differences between regions or our history. The knowledge they have about the United States is gleaned from news reports and the entertainment industry.\* > > So sometimes we get tired of someone saying “Why don’t you just do it X way because it works over here?” Well, we’re not you. We have a different culture, a different history and even our government functions differently from yours. What works in Texas might not work in Wyoming. What works in the Netherlands might not work in the United States. > > And it doesn’t help when some Europeans go on about how barbaric or crazy the United States is. I’m not proud of this but I can’t help but smirk a bit about the recent riots in Great Britain, France and now Sweden after hearing from Europeans about how racist we are in the United States and the social justice they enjoy in western Europe. > \*: Certainly there are Europeans who are well informed about American culture, history, politics, etc., etc. just as there are American experts on Great Britain, Germany, or France. I went to High School and College in the US. Straight As in American History, Civics and a combined History/Politics/Humanities Gifted program. I have since spent forty years reading, among other subjects, many books on US History and Governance. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/57 "2013-05-27T06:27:49Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > If the U.S. switches to metric, it will mean the terrorists have won. And don’t forget the metric system controls the illegal drug trade in this country. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/58 "2013-05-27T06:28:38Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > When **Pjen** keeps going on about the history of the U.S., I have to laugh and wonder if he’s aware of the history of his own country. Very aware and very critical. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/59 "2013-05-27T06:30:05Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > But AFAIK the UK _doesn’t_ really have any equivalent to a Florida-wide election. In Florida in 2000, 6 million people voted. I don’t think there’s ever been a single race in Britain with that many ballots to count. The London mayoral elections are probably the biggest, and there were only about 2 million ballots in 2012. > > ETA: Actually, the two nation-wide referendums had a lot more ballots. But ballots could be and were counted in localities. All votes in both countries are tallied locally and the figures (not the votes) transferred upwards. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326/60 "2013-05-27T06:35:15Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > BTW I am extremely critical of the UK system of punishment, advocating a more Western European approach with considerably less harsh sentences and conditions and considerably increased rehabilitation and resocialization. When did the UK cease to be a part of Western Europe? > [@septimus](#): > > 😕 Does **Dissonance** think cultural, social and poitical differences have a strong racial component? **Dissonance** thinks **SecretaryofEvil** described what **Pjen** is doing far more eloquently than he could find the words for; **Pjen** is being passively aggressively jingoistic. **Dissonance** doesn’t think Europeans are inherently superior to Americans or vice versa, much less that there is a racial explanation for this superiority that he doesn’t think exists seeing as how much of America derived from Europe. **Dissonance** would also take it as a kindness to be asked directly rather than in third person as he is not royalty. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-learn-from-other-countries/659326.md?page=4)