# Can America shake off its defeatist attitude before its too late? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 22, 2015, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-shake-off-its-defeatist-attitude-before-its-too-late/718268 "2015-04-22T07:53:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-shake-off-its-defeatist-attitude-before-its-too-late/718268/81 "2015-04-23T15:00:33Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > What they need is a change in the law to make it legal and also get people past the EEW factor. What do they think happens in nature? I think quite a few people are just ignorant. Like the lady a couple weeks ago who told me she never buys vegetables that have ever had any dirt on them, even if it’s been cleaned off. I didn’t have the heart to tell her what they grow in… ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-shake-off-its-defeatist-attitude-before-its-too-late/718268/82 "2015-04-23T15:29:38Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > No other Western US state is going to let CA take any more of its water. Not one bit. > > The politics of this is firm and long standing. > > The people who suggest a pipeline to Washington or even Alaska (!) are so incredibly clueless about the reality of the situation that they should be laughed down. They also perennially suggest building a pipeline to the Great Lakes. Funny thing is, the states & provinces that border the Great Lakes aren’t keen on California solving its water problem by making it _their_ problem. If any serious efforts were make to build a pipeline, the Great Lakes states would do anything, up to & including calling out the national guard to destroy the pipeline. There would literally need to be armed guards every hundred feet or so, all the way from (I assume) Illinois or Wisconsin to California, in order the keep the pipeline operational. The effective cost would probably be on the order of dollars per gallon. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-shake-off-its-defeatist-attitude-before-its-too-late/718268/83 "2015-04-23T15:31:12Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > They definitely went too far. The monopolies, low wages, and price fixing were hurting the economy. Teddy Roosevelt had to break them up and get regulations in place. > > I was just using them as an example of movers and shakers in industries that can get things done. But they do need to be regulated to prevent abuses of power. Its a fine line too walk. > > We don’t seem to have business and corporate leaders that are willing to take on a big project like an interstate water pipeline. Government can only do so much. The best engineers and scientists work for the big corporations and private businesses. > > This is the can do, get it done approach I admire. They worked fast and still had an excellent safety record. > [Hoover Dam - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoover_Dam) Ah, good response!!! Sorry I missed the post the day before ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-shake-off-its-defeatist-attitude-before-its-too-late/718268/84 "2015-04-23T15:44:21Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I think quite a few people are just ignorant. Like the lady a couple weeks ago who told me she never buys vegetables that have ever had any dirt on them, even if it’s been cleaned off. I didn’t have the heart to tell her what they grow in… You should have told her just to watch her head asplode. Might have been epic. Then rushed over here and told us all about it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-shake-off-its-defeatist-attitude-before-its-too-late/718268/85 "2015-04-23T15:54:43Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > How difficult would it be to abrogate those contracts? If nothing, else, couldn’t “eminent domain” be applied? I was thinking the same thing. It would seem a perfect place for the application of that doctrine. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-shake-off-its-defeatist-attitude-before-its-too-late/718268/86 "2015-04-23T16:11:48Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > No. Ultrapure water is not good for drinking. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Why not? > > It’s not like it’s going to suck the life out of you. [Actually, it kind of will do that.](http://www.fastcompany.com/1750612/dangerously-clean-water-used-make-your-iphone) ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-shake-off-its-defeatist-attitude-before-its-too-late/718268/87 "2015-04-23T16:19:48Z")
It’s not like the water would run through you unaltered - it would in fact be absorbed into your system with all the other water molecules. You wouldn’t lose any salts or minerals to it. That’s just BS. ---
**Author:** ![Ispolkom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47774/32.png) [@Ispolkom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ispolkom)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-shake-off-its-defeatist-attitude-before-its-too-late/718268/88 "2015-04-23T16:33:36Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > . They worked fast and still had an excellent safety record. > [Hoover Dam - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoover_Dam) Well, other than the [112 workers](http://http://www.usbr.gov/lc/hooverdam/History/essays/fatal.html)who died in the construction. That doesn’t include dozens who died from [carbon monoxide poisoning](http://http://www.eajohansson.net/2011/02/07/hoover-dam-safety-concerns/) building the diversion tunnels (electric equipment would have been too expensive and taken too long), whose deaths were attributed to pneumonia, nor does it include death from heat stroke. Of course, this was during a depression, and wages and life were cheap. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-shake-off-its-defeatist-attitude-before-its-too-late/718268/89 "2015-04-23T17:10:18Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > It’s not like the water would run through you unaltered - it would in fact be absorbed into your system with all the other water molecules. You wouldn’t lose any salts or minerals to it. That’s just BS. You wouldn’t lose any minerals in your body overall. But the ultrapure water would absorb minerals out of your cells until it established a balance with the water in your body. Granted, this effect wouldn’t be lethal from just drinking one glass of ultrapure water but it would be measurable and you could drink enough ultrapure water for it to kill you. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-shake-off-its-defeatist-attitude-before-its-too-late/718268/90 "2015-04-23T17:48:23Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You wouldn’t lose any minerals in your body overall. But the ultrapure water would absorb minerals out of your cells until it established a balance with the water in your body. Granted, this effect wouldn’t be lethal from just drinking one glass of ultrapure water but it would be measurable and you could drink enough ultrapure water for it to kill you. You could drink enough tap water for it to kill you too; I’m not sure there is a big difference between the lethal amounts of each. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-shake-off-its-defeatist-attitude-before-its-too-late/718268/91 "2015-04-23T18:06:24Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > . . . The only real solutions are to force the farmers to grow lower water usage crops or start building reservoirs and desalination plants and maybe in a decade we’ll be ok. . . . It would be pretty to think so. Personally I think that there are snarling arguments now and there would be snarling arguments after a decade of improvements. Only the spreadsheets would change. Water is a finite and valuable resource. We’re humans. There can be “improvements” but there cannot be A Solution. And every “improvement” will be experienced by some groups as a tragedy or boondoggle. There is no joy in Mudville. > [@msmith537](#): > > . . . Why do people constantly say this? They’ve been talking about our “infrastructure crumbling” for the last 30 years that I can remember. . . . . It’s an entropy thing. **Past Tense** has it exactly right. > [@PastTense](#): > > If a certain type of infrastructure lasts 50 years on average, they should be replacing 2% a year. If a certain type of infrastructure lasts 33 years on average, they should be replacing 3% a year. If a certain type of infrastructure lasts 25 years on average, they should be replacing 4% a year. > > They are not meeting these numbers. Instead they a building up a big backlog of projects which need to be done. Maintenance isn’t sexy. You can always lower maintenance “just this year - until things improve.” Then it’s like the old Fram oil filter ad used to say: “You can pay me now, or you can pay me later.” (The relative cost of an oil filter vs. an engine rebuild. Damn, I wish I had bought one of those posters, back in the day. It’s the perfect metaphor for delayed infrastructure maintenance.) > [@septimus](#): > > How difficult would it be to abrogate those contracts? If nothing, else, couldn’t “eminent domain” be applied? Shhhh! I’m listening for the sound of an explosion at the main pumps for the aqueduct. (Yes, I know there’s more than one.) Besides, the regulations aren’t set up that way. During water shortages, judges adjudicate between competing water rights. That’s what will happen no matter how big the shortage is. Alfalfa growers (as an example) will not lose their water rights, but they may have their ability to use those rights curtailed temporarily. When the rains return, the rights are still there. The map at the wiki article, Water in California, isn’t bad. There’s a [public database of water rights](http://www.waterboards.ca.gov/waterrights/water_issues/programs/ewrims/index.shtml), if you’re interested. Now ask whether we should be mitigating the drying of the Salton Sea. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-shake-off-its-defeatist-attitude-before-its-too-late/718268/92 "2015-04-23T18:15:36Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > I was thinking the same thing. It would seem a perfect place for the application of that doctrine. Ah, but eminent domain is for taking things from people who don’t have money and political clout, not from people who do have those things. > [@msmith537](#): > > Why do people constantly say this? They’ve been talking about our “infrastructure crumbling” for the last 30 years that I can remember As anyone who has owned and tried to maintain a house knows, human-made structures deteriorate, unless somebody is maintaining them. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-shake-off-its-defeatist-attitude-before-its-too-late/718268/93 "2015-04-23T18:20:45Z")
Here’s the thing though… California agriculture being 1% of the state economy sounds like nothing, but we have a sort of microcosmic situation similar to the US economy vs. the rest of the world going on. California’s agricultural industry may be 1% of the California GDP, but it’s also 16% of the US agricultural output. Texas, the next state down, has agricultural production that is only 1/3 the percentage (and dollar value) of California’s. [https://www.fieldtomarket.org/report/national-2/PNT\_NatReport\_Socioeconomic\_AgriContributionToNatlAndStateGDP.pdf](https://www.fieldtomarket.org/report/national-2/PNT_NatReport_Socioeconomic_AgriContributionToNatlAndStateGDP.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-shake-off-its-defeatist-attitude-before-its-too-late/718268/94 "2015-04-23T20:03:39Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > You could drink enough tap water for it to kill you too; I’m not sure there is a big difference between the lethal amounts of each. I think it’s considerably less. Drinking ultrapure water is the equivalent of drinking saltwater, except the osmosis is going in the opposite direction. It’s hypotonic rather than hypertonic. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-shake-off-its-defeatist-attitude-before-its-too-late/718268/95 "2015-04-23T21:16:05Z")
So mix it with less-than-pure water. Maybe urine, that would restore some of the salts and minerals needed by the body. Sure, do that and you’re golden. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-shake-off-its-defeatist-attitude-before-its-too-late/718268/96 "2015-04-23T21:24:20Z")
An ultrapure water [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=628923) from a couple years ago on a forum dedicated to fighting ignorance. Strangely aceplace started that thread too. Some great posts in that thread instead of starting over here. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-shake-off-its-defeatist-attitude-before-its-too-late/718268/97 "2015-04-23T23:09:31Z")
Another issue is the amount of water lost to leaks in supply pipes. This is an issue throughout the country; not just California. So money wisely spent on infrastructure improvement will reduce these losses. (A Google search indicates that in California at least, about ten percent of water is lost to leaks.) ---
**Author:** ![Tzigone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Tzigone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tzigone)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-shake-off-its-defeatist-attitude-before-its-too-late/718268/98 "2015-04-24T12:49:23Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Another issue is the amount of water lost to leaks in supply pipes. This is an issue throughout the country; not just California. So money wisely spent on infrastructure improvement will reduce these losses. (A Google search indicates that in California at least, about ten percent of water is lost to leaks.) A few years ago I read it was 20% in Atlanta, which is just insane. But I can’t remember the keywords to find the source, and I do live in Alabama, and we were having some water “negotiations” with Georgia at the time, so the author may have a had a dog in the fight, as it were. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-shake-off-its-defeatist-attitude-before-its-too-late/718268/99 "2015-04-24T15:00:59Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Another issue is the amount of water lost to leaks in supply pipes. This is an issue throughout the country; not just California. So money wisely spent on infrastructure improvement will reduce these losses. (A Google search indicates that in California at least, about ten percent of water is lost to leaks.) Of course, the longer your water pipeline, the bigger this problem is going to be. An acceptable rate of leakage for a 400 mile aqueduct might not be acceptable for an 1100 mile aqueduct. The longer the pipeline, the less efficient it is going to be. A longer pipeline is also going to require more maintenance. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-shake-off-its-defeatist-attitude-before-its-too-late/718268/100 "2015-04-30T05:46:36Z")
Just saw this, thought it’s relevant to the thread: A video explaining how Israel went from severe drought to having more water than it needs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-shake-off-its-defeatist-attitude-before-its-too-late/718268.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-shake-off-its-defeatist-attitude-before-its-too-late/718268.md?page=6)