# Can America trust atheists? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 26, 2006, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-trust-atheists/349906 "2006-03-26T01:07:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-trust-atheists/349906/61 "2006-03-26T17:52:57Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Tell me, is there ANYTHING that might sway you into believing that there was a God? I’m not SentientMeat, who is perfectly capable of answering this on their own, but I’d say that some small sliver of evidence would be a good start down that path. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-trust-atheists/349906/62 "2006-03-26T17:56:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by magellan01 > The people who are most confident in their faith (of the Christian strain anyway) believe in the infallibility of God … > [@David Simmons](#): > > And they are certain of this? > > If so, what is the difference between that and being certain of no God? That’s a great question. First, there is the argument that if there is a God , being God, he must be a perfect being and therefore, infallible. Second, maybe they are wrong and God is not infallible and all-powerful. Maybe he’s just _more_ powerful (I would thiink that would be safe to say), and we can’t say anything about his level of fallibility. Again, very interesting question. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-trust-atheists/349906/63 "2006-03-26T18:07:14Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Do you think, just maybe, it can be an attitude thiing on the part of some atheists? What attitude would that be, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-trust-atheists/349906/64 "2006-03-26T18:07:59Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Come now. This is plain sophistry. The highest probability bay a mile is that the respondents to the survey, and you also, are talking about the Christian God. And they are also certain that their interpretation is correct. I appears that **Uzi** was responsing to a point made by ME? If so, he was in error. I have never on these boards argued for the existence of any particular strain of God. I am willing to defend a position I stated, not one I did not state. How is this sophistry? And, just so you know, the probability that I am arguing for the existence of the Christian God is zero. Hope that helps. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-trust-atheists/349906/65 "2006-03-26T18:09:10Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > If we’re talking about trust, and not dislike, I always supposed many theists distrusted atheists because they thought the only reason people didn’t always lie was because of the carrot of heaven and the stick of Hell. Hence, they see the atheists as having no reason to act in a trustworthy manner. I’m sure thater’s a lot of truth in that. Though that wasn’t the attitude I was alluding to in your cite. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-trust-atheists/349906/66 "2006-03-26T18:10:29Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > I’m not SentientMeat, who is perfectly capable of answering this on their own, but I’d say that some small sliver of evidence would be a good start down that path. Forget sliver. I’m curious if there is ANYTHING that would convince him that there is a God. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-trust-atheists/349906/67 "2006-03-26T18:13:02Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > What attitude would that be, exactly? Hubris. Arrogance. Intransigence. An unwillingness to accept they might be wrong. Much of the same attributes that many find so distastful in rabid fundementalists. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-trust-atheists/349906/68 "2006-03-26T18:16:45Z")
While some of the entries on **GIGObuster** ’s list might be debateable, am I the only one who noticed that Charles Schultz was on there? If we’re going to stretch the definition of “atheist” so far as to include Schultz, then this whole debate is unnecessary, since by that standard, everyone in the country except Pat Robertson and Jack Chick is already an atheist. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-trust-atheists/349906/69 "2006-03-26T18:21:28Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Hubris. Arrogance. Intransigence. An unwillingness to accept they might be wrong. Much of the same attributes that many find so distastful in rabid fundementalists. Oh, that I can see. If someone said they were the “truth”, I’d probably question their integrity myself. I still don’t see what that has to do with the majority of Americans not trusting atheists, though. They’ve never seemed put off by that attitude by others. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-trust-atheists/349906/70 "2006-03-26T18:30:21Z")
I have a sneaking suspicion that many people, when responding to that poll, had an absurd caricature of what an atheist is in mind. Maybe they’re thinking of someone who actively agitates against religion or someone who might be a communist, rather than someone like me who just doesn’t think of religion at all. It’s not a part of my life in any way, and I have no interest in disuading anyone from abandoning their religious beliefs. I’m happy to celebrate Christmas and have no problems saying “group grace” if I’m a guest for a meal in someone’s home. If I’m at a Catholic wedding, I won’t take communion, but that’s more out of respect for the religion (I don’t think the priest would want me to take communion, as a non-believer) than a sense that I need to stand on principle and not participate. I suppose there is a subset of atheists who are anti-religion, and who will make a point of being confrontational about it, but my guess is they are a tiny minority within the atheist minority. It’s probably that type of actively anti-religious atheist that many people have in mind. They may have never met an actual atheist or at least anyone who talks about being one. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-trust-atheists/349906/71 "2006-03-26T18:31:09Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > May you more mind is capable of more than mine. But a fundemental tenet of science, maybe THE fundemental tenet is causality. That every event has a cause. Even taking into account Quantum Mechanics, Brane Theory, Multiverses, etc., there was a start. And something caused it to start. But let’s not go into a hijack. Multiverse theories do no require a “start.” That’s the beauty of them. Your “tenet of causality” does not exist in science. On the quantum level, we now know that matter can indeed arise spontaneously from nothing. The Cosmological argument is scientifically defunct. > [@](#): > > Tell me, is there ANYTHING that might sway you into believing that there was a God? You could start by showing me a single thing in the universe which cannot be explained without magic. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-trust-atheists/349906/72 "2006-03-26T18:31:47Z")
> [@magellan](#): > > THE fundemental tenet is causality. And causality is itself being questioned by those hypotheses. > [@](#): > > Tell me, is there ANYTHING that might sway you into believing that there was a God? Not that I can imagine, since it could just as easily be evidence of a Matrix or whatnot. My brain could, I suppose, be physically reconfigured into “theism”, but that would be something of a cheat (and would arguably not be _me_ any more.) ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-trust-atheists/349906/73 "2006-03-26T18:38:24Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > Oh, that I can see. If someone said they were the “truth”, I’d probably question their integrity myself. > > I still don’t see what that has to do with the majority of Americans not trusting atheists, though. They’ve never seemed put off by that attitude by others. Another good point. No doubt comfort with one’s own group an fear of “others” plays a role. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-trust-atheists/349906/74 "2006-03-26T18:41:18Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > If I’m at a Catholic wedding, I won’t take communion, but that’s more out of respect for the religion (I don’t think the priest would want me to take communion, as a non-believer) You wouldn’t be allowed to if you wanted to. Communion can only be taken after you’ve been baptized, confirmed and gone to confession. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-trust-atheists/349906/75 "2006-03-26T18:49:00Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > **GIGObuster** , that’s an interesting list of atheists and perhaps it’s accurate. But some on that list did at least believe in the survival of the spirit or soul after death. I knew that, that was the reason I added Agnostics and unbelievers when mentioning the list, the Atheists in SF may have other evidence, but I did remember that not all of the people in the list were so strict in their Atheism or Agnosticism. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-trust-atheists/349906/76 "2006-03-26T18:53:18Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Multiverse theories do no require a “start.” That’s the beauty of them. How many were there in the beginning? Why? How many now? What caused the first one(s) into existence? Why is there not simply nothing? Those are questions that come up, but can we avert a hijack. We noth know this has all been discussed before. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Your “tenet of causality” does not exist in science. On the quantum level, we now know that matter can indeed arise spontaneously from nothing. It is my understanding that the quantum mechanics you’re discusing here talks to the movement of matter from one place to another, not the creation of it. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > You could start by showing me a single thing in the universe which cannot be explained without magic. So whatever I show you that would go to prove a being that operates outside the laws of the universe, you will attribute to magic? I’m fine with that. Though, at that point, I’d ask if you were more or less open to the idea of a God. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-trust-atheists/349906/77 "2006-03-26T18:58:08Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Another good point. No doubt comfort with one’s own group an fear of “others” plays a role. What else plays a role? I honestly haven’t seen anyone come up with any good reason whatsoever, but I’d be happy to hear one. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-trust-atheists/349906/78 "2006-03-26T19:04:15Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > What else plays a role? I honestly haven’t seen anyone come up with any good reason whatsoever, but I’d be happy to hear one. I think some things have been mentioned. Hubris is one, both as it describes a person’s intransigence and his refusal to acknowledge/accept something greater than himself. The morality issue is another one. Some people who take their morals from religion are wary of those who profess no religion, equating it with an absence of a morals. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-trust-atheists/349906/79 "2006-03-26T19:09:39Z")
Attention: People of Religion I know there are posters on this board that have more of a discomfort with atheists than I. I urge you to weigh in. The OP has opened the door for helpful dialogue. I practice no religion, and would be interested to hear your responses. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-trust-atheists/349906/80 "2006-03-26T19:10:33Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > **GIGObuster** , that’s an interesting list of atheists and perhaps it’s accurate. But some on that list did at least believe in the survival of the spirit or soul after death. Except that has nothing to do with being an atheist. An atheist can belive in souls ( I don’t, but others do ); they just can’t believe in a god. > [@magellan01](#): > > Do you really think there is as much literary “weight” behind Frodo as there is God? Yup. For that matter, there’s more “weight” behind the existence of Yoda, since we’ve actually seen images of him. > [@magellan01](#): > > It could be that every interpretation of God ever imagined by man is 100% incorrect. A statement that leads directly to atheism, since part of those “interpetations” is that a god exists. > [@magellan01](#): > > The fact remains that many cosmologists accept A God as the first cause. Not many of the good ones. God is not a scientificly proven ( or scientifically evidenced ) concept, so it’s bad science to use gods as an explanation for anything. > [@magellan01](#): > > Do you think, just maybe, it can be an attitude thiing on the part of some atheists? When your opponents are wrong to the point of being silly, keep trying to force their beliefs down everybody’s throat, and use those beliefs as an excuse to commit atrocites - it’s hard not to have an “attitude”. > [@magellan01](#): > > But a fundemental tenet of science, maybe THE fundemental tenet is causality. That every event has a cause. Even taking into account Quantum Mechanics, Brane Theory, Multiverses, etc., there was a start. And something caused it to start. God(s) hardly qualify, since that just pushes the question back to “what made God ?”. If the answer is “He always existed” or “He made himself”, you could say the same about the universe (s) without invoking an entity we have no evidence of the existence ( or even the possibility ) of. God is an unnecessary hypothesis, as well as a foolish and nasty one. > [@magellan01](#): > > Hubris. Arrogance. Intransigence. You’re describing theism, not atheism; without those, religion couldn’t exist. > [@David Simmons](#): > > It is my understanding that the quantum mechanics you’re discusing here talks to the movement of matter from one place to another, not the creation of it. Virtual particles appear from"empty" space. According to some theories, all matter in the universe was created this way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-trust-atheists/349906.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-america-trust-atheists/349906.md?page=5)