# Can an American town ban Christmas? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 6, 2019, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-american-town-ban-christmas/844459 "2019-12-06T06:45:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2019, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-american-town-ban-christmas/844459/41 "2019-12-07T00:05:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Would that “25%” happen to be this one direct to video movie put out by the religious studio Peace Arch Trinity back in 2008-“The Town That Banned Christmas”? You’re seriously going to keep picking this nit? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2019, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-american-town-ban-christmas/844459/42 "2019-12-07T00:17:29Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > The above is likely not based in fact. Actually, that’s pretty much true everywhere I am familiar with. Our annual Winter Assembly has something for everybody, music-wise. Although they do steer clear of the more _blatant_ Christian songs. Or they perform them as instrumentals. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2019, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-american-town-ban-christmas/844459/43 "2019-12-07T00:24:23Z")
I was mostly focusing on this: > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I know schools in our area kids cannot sing Christmas songs at the annual Christmas… woops… HOLIDAY show. Nice, generic songs about… well I dont remember if they can even mention Santa Claus or snow. The only song I remember is “Happy Holidays”. > > No songs with any depth or meaning. It’s probably not based on fact if he lives in Johnson County KS. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2019, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-american-town-ban-christmas/844459/44 "2019-12-07T00:55:04Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > I know it’s the MO on the SDMB to question the ulterior motive of any and all questions asked but I’ve seen a lot of bad Christmas films where this is the case. The movie that inspired the question was the 2000 animated movie “An Angel For Christmas” about a town where the Mayor was basically Scrooge and officially banned Christmas from being celebrated and enforced this by having anyone who celebrated it fired (since he owned the local factory and 99% of the townsfolk worked for him in some ways even the police) well, I’m currently watching a movie where a “farm kid” on a desert planet encountered two sentient robots and then went on to blow up a fake planet. So… ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2019, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-american-town-ban-christmas/844459/45 "2019-12-07T01:11:02Z")
Can they? Sure! Pittsburgh is almost notorious for enacting laws it knows either will be shot down in the courts or are impossible to enforce. Hey - you never know; some day one may actually stick. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2019, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-american-town-ban-christmas/844459/46 "2019-12-07T03:24:53Z")
My California 49er Gold Rush county was mobbed by miners way back when: French-Canadiens, LatinX, Serbs, Cornishmen, all with rather different Winter Solstice celebrations. Orthodoxoi are still numerous so we have two Xmases here, with the usual Prod and Cat-licker displays contrasting the Slavs, and merchants trying to fleece everyone in sight. Ban Xmas? Won’t work here. But let each sect pay for their own festive lights and pranks. I don’t want to subsidize a Scientologist parade. Is Santa clear? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2019, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-american-town-ban-christmas/844459/47 "2019-12-07T06:38:33Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You’re seriously going to keep picking this nit? This “nit” is supposedly the reason the OP raised the question in the first place. Personally, this “screaming militant atheists” crap bothers me a bit more. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2019, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-american-town-ban-christmas/844459/48 "2019-12-07T15:53:41Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > Is Santa clear? Considering the group I am leaving to go drinking with ------ Santa is almost never clear. Especially after the 12th bar or so. 😃 PS - we’ve never been organized but if you check FaceBook you’ll see we happen every year. > **[Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania - Santarchy 2024](https://www.santacon.info/Pittsburgh-PA/)** > > Information and discussion about the 2024 Pittsburgh, PA SantaCon, including when is the date, where to meet and what time to meet. Plus, authoritative links and additional details as they become available... > **[Login to Meetup | Meetup](https://www.meetup.com/pittsburgh-free/events/257753035/)** > > Not a Meetup member yet? Log in and find groups that host online or in person events and meet people in your local community who share your interests. And I’m the Amish Santa (Yoder Klaus) in the middle of the picture. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2019, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-american-town-ban-christmas/844459/49 "2019-12-07T16:17:28Z")
If the government tries to get around the establishment clause by selling land to a private group so that it can leave a religious display in place, especially if it’s a small bit of land surrounded by public land, it seems to me that the “screaming militant atheists” have a very good point to make. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2019, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-american-town-ban-christmas/844459/50 "2019-12-08T02:04:48Z")
I envisage a “screaming militant atheist” parody creche scene setup in a public park. There’s a (pagan) yule tree in the background laden with little glowing skull lights. Some reptilioid human+inhuman spawn writhes in the cradle. The three kings stand nearby offering their gifts: Santa Claus waves a wasp-waist bottle of Coca-Coca; Frosty the Snowman dangles a bag of carrots; and the Burger King hoists a Double Whopper. Angelic drones circle overhead blasting-down lightning bolts in rhythm with the drummer boy’s incessant martial tattoo; giraffes and Hereford cattle sway in time. CO2 fumes rise. Think that’ll survive the ban on Xmas? ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2019, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-american-town-ban-christmas/844459/51 "2019-12-08T06:29:34Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > It doesn’t matter what a town does to try to ban Christmas. The spirit of Christmas will prevail and Santa will deliver presents to all the little children in town, and the frozen hearts of those cruel councilmen will thaw and they will rename the town to Christmasville. You have just written every holiday movie ever made. I hope you are getting residuals or serialization compensation. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-american-town-ban-christmas/844459/52 "2019-12-09T07:41:23Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > I envisage a “screaming militant atheist” parody creche scene setup in a public park. There’s a (pagan) yule tree in the background laden with little glowing skull lights. Some reptilioid human+inhuman spawn writhes in the cradle. The three kings stand nearby offering their gifts: Santa Claus waves a wasp-waist bottle of Coca-Coca; Frosty the Snowman dangles a bag of carrots; and the Burger King hoists a Double Whopper. Angelic drones circle overhead blasting-down lightning bolts in rhythm with the drummer boy’s incessant martial tattoo; giraffes and Hereford cattle sway in time. CO2 fumes rise. > > Think that’ll survive the ban on Xmas? The lizard thing is basically another religion, not atheism, and I really don’t see how the skulls fit. Leave those out (but still make Baby Jesus something else), and I’d have no problem with this display, showing the uneasy partnership between the sacred and the secular holidays of Christmas. And I do think that’s important here: there’s a Christian holiday of Christmas, and then just a secular celebration of winter and presents and good cheer that is also called Christmas. The former I don’t think the State should be involved with, but the latter I have no problem with. It is, in fact, a national holiday. A decorated pine tree with no explicitly Christian decorations isn’t really about Christian beliefs, but about celebrating winter. You’ve got the pine which is evergreen in winter, symbolizing that life continues. You’ve got the lights and sparkles to chase away the winter melancholy. You’ve got the peppermints that create a cool sensation, like the cold of winter. You’ve got the presents to celebrate the idea of giving. The difficult one is Santa Claus, who is a mixture of a winter spirit and a legend about a Christian saint. Still, he’s pretty far removed from anything Christian, with even the “naught vs. nice” thing dying away–when does Santa not give presents to naughty children? And, if that idea is Christian, then what about Elf on a Shelf? Santa’s origins have even been completely reimagined to remove the Christian element. Reindeer also have had their origins reimagined, rather than being connected with St. Nicholas. Frosty is clearly just winter, as are the snowflakes, the other evergreens like holly, the hot drinks, and many of the songs. Jack Frost is winter. I think that dichotomy of Winter vs. Jesus has to be acknowledged and not treat both as the same thing. Sure, Christians often combine the two holidays, but I argue they still are two different holidays. Kirk Cameron’s movie is not correct, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-american-town-ban-christmas/844459/53 "2019-12-09T13:47:55Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > And I do think that’s important here: there’s a Christian holiday of Christmas, and then just a secular celebration of winter and presents and good cheer that is also called Christmas. The former I don’t think the State should be involved with, but the latter I have no problem with. It is, in fact, a national holiday. No, it’s not. Your “secular Christmas” is a secular Christian cultural holiday. It’s not a Jewish or Muslim or atheist secular holiday. Sure, some may celebrate parts of it (a natural result of being a small minority) but it’s not a national holiday because it’s immersed in Christian culture. As a Jew growing up surrounded by Christian symbols and celebrations I can assure you that it’s not part of my experience. You can call it what you want, but a Christmas tree is still a Christmas tree even if you remove the angel and Santa. Every year someone raises this argument and although I understand it, I strongly disagree with it. To my mind, this argument is mainly put forward by people who are cultural Christian, regardless of whether they are religious. It’s rarely put forward by people raised outside of Christian culture. As to Santa being removed from Christian culture, I just have to shake my head. Sorry, that’s not going to fly. (ha!) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-american-town-ban-christmas/844459/54 "2019-12-09T14:11:03Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > No, it’s not. Your “secular Christmas” is a secular Christian cultural holiday. It’s not a Jewish or Muslim or atheist secular holiday. Sure, some may celebrate parts of it (a natural result of being a small minority) but it’s not a national holiday because it’s immersed in Christian culture. As a Jew growing up surrounded by Christian symbols and celebrations I can assure you that it’s not part of my experience. You can call it what you want, but a Christmas tree is still a Christmas tree even if you remove the angel and Santa. > > Every year someone raises this argument and although I understand it, I strongly disagree with it. To my mind, this argument is mainly put forward by people who are cultural Christian, regardless of whether they are religious. It’s rarely put forward by people raised outside of Christian culture. > > As to Santa being removed from Christian culture, I just have to shake my head. Sorry, that’s not going to fly. (ha!) I was raised in America outside of Christian culture. I was raised as a Hindu and I have been an atheist since childhood. I fiercely oppose government recognition of religion. I prefer that public buildings not display manger scenes. I refuse to take the Pledge of Allegiance. I celebrate Christmas as a secular/pagan holiday. I send “Seasons Greetings” cards. I put up a tree and lights. I wear a Santa hat. I give gifts. When my nephew and niece were little, I signed them “from Santa.” I play and sing holiday songs, avoiding the ones that are overly explicit in religiosity. I wish people “Merry Christmas” or “Happy Holidays,” choosing by whim. I live Christmas as a secular holiday, as someone who is just about as non-Christian and non-religious as can be. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-american-town-ban-christmas/844459/55 "2019-12-09T14:33:08Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > No, it’s not. Your “secular Christmas” is a secular Christian cultural holiday. It’s not a Jewish or Muslim or atheist secular holiday. Sure, some may celebrate parts of it (a natural result of being a small minority) but it’s not a national holiday because it’s immersed in Christian culture. As a Jew growing up surrounded by Christian symbols and celebrations I can assure you that it’s not part of my experience. You can call it what you want, but a Christmas tree is still a Christmas tree even if you remove the angel and Santa. I am certainly not going to argue with you about your experience - but I think it may be colored a little by your own religion. I know plenty of non-Christians who celebrate a secular Christmas - and by that, I don’t mean Jews and Muslims partnered with Christians. I mean people who are Buddhist or Taoist who are not partnered with Christians. I’m not sure if there is some particular reason why Jews/Muslims don’t see a secular Christmas or if it’s simply that non-Abrahamic religions are more accepting of celebrations that originated in another religion. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-american-town-ban-christmas/844459/56 "2019-12-09T14:46:13Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > No, it’s not. Your “secular Christmas” is a secular Christian cultural holiday. It’s not a Jewish or Muslim or atheist secular holiday. Sure, some may celebrate parts of it (a natural result of being a small minority) but it’s not a national holiday because it’s immersed in Christian culture. As a Jew growing up surrounded by Christian symbols and celebrations I can assure you that it’s not part of my experience. You can call it what you want, but a Christmas tree is still a Christmas tree even if you remove the angel and Santa. > > Every year someone raises this argument and although I understand it, I strongly disagree with it. To my mind, this argument is mainly put forward by people who are cultural Christian, regardless of whether they are religious. It’s rarely put forward by people raised outside of Christian culture. > > As to Santa being removed from Christian culture, I just have to shake my head. Sorry, that’s not going to fly. (ha!) This I strongly agree with. The fact that some non-Christians choose to observe the holiday doesn’t change things for the rest of us who know it’s a Christian holiday dedicated to the birth of Christ. Simply removing the symbol of Christ does not change this. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-american-town-ban-christmas/844459/57 "2019-12-09T15:16:00Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > This I strongly agree with. The fact that some non-Christians choose to observe the holiday doesn’t change things for the rest of us who know it’s a Christian holiday dedicated to the birth of Christ. Simply removing the symbol of Christ does not change this. And other people know that your take on what Christmas “really” is does not pertain to them and what they celebrate this time of year. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-american-town-ban-christmas/844459/58 "2019-12-09T16:34:40Z")
Much as I wish “winter and good cheer and presents”, or “Thursday”, would be pretexts for a national holiday, as opposed to some bloody war or revolution, the fact that there are no spontaneous Christmas markets, public decorations, or even a day off work in China, Israel, etc., seems to give the lie to the idea that it isn’t totally a Christian holiday, possibly including other solstice-loving elements. Saturnalia and similar also have religious associations. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-american-town-ban-christmas/844459/59 "2019-12-09T17:04:40Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Much as I wish “winter and good cheer and presents”, or “Thursday”, would be pretexts for a national holiday, as opposed to some bloody war or revolution, the fact that there are no spontaneous Christmas markets, public decorations, or even a day off work in China, Israel, etc., seems to give the lie to the idea that it isn’t totally a Christian holiday, possibly including other solstice-loving elements. It is totally a Christian holiday, but some elements are religiously Christian while others are culturally Christian. Some people are “culturally Christian” without believing or practicing the Christian religion; and the USA is arguably a _culturally_ Christian nation, or at least has been for much of its history (while China and Israel certainly are not). It’s not entirely clear, at least to me, how issues of freedom of religion, separation of church and state, etc. apply to _culture_. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-american-town-ban-christmas/844459/60 "2019-12-09T17:07:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And other people know that your take on what Christmas “really” is does not pertain to them and what they celebrate this time of year. That’s true as long as it goes both ways. This part of the (annual) discussion was started in the post where BigT claimed that there’s a secular Chistmas national holiday. My claim is that as long as there is a significant percentage of people who don’t agree that any Christmas celebration is secular makes that claim false. I can’t speak for others but I don’t want to stop you from having a completely secular Christmas celebration. Just to recognize that others in the community won’t see it that way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-american-town-ban-christmas/844459.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-american-town-ban-christmas/844459.md?page=4)