# Can an army general be demoted **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 13, 2016, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-army-general-be-demoted/768392 "2016-10-13T05:51:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2016, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-army-general-be-demoted/768392/41 "2016-10-15T02:53:49Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Brig. Gen. Jeffrey Sinclair was demoted to lieutenant colonel and forced to retire in 2014. Here’s the details published in the LA Times [“Army demotes Gen. Jeffrey Sinclair two ranks for sexual misconduct”](http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-army-sinclair-demoted-20140620-story.html). This was done via a courts martial. Nitpick: Courts – plural. Court – singular. Courts-martial – plural. Court-martial – singular. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2016, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-army-general-be-demoted/768392/42 "2016-10-15T09:35:13Z")
He won’t get demoted, but a Canadian Major-General is [facing a court-martial.](http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadas-special-forces-commander-faces-court-martial-charges-for-firearm-accident-in-iraq) Major-General Mike Rouleau, head of the Special Operations Forces, negligently discharged his rifle while loading it in preparation “to go to a forward trench position” in northern Iraq last year. He’ll probably be fined a week’s pay or something. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2016, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-army-general-be-demoted/768392/43 "2016-10-15T10:28:51Z")
Not quite in keeping with the original question but Admiral John Byng was not demoted- he was shot. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-army-general-be-demoted/768392/44 "2016-10-16T17:12:58Z")
> [@turner](#): > > Most of the time a General officer is demoted these days, it is in retirement. You are allowed to retire in the last rank in which you served honorably. For example, if a brigadier general was found to be committing some offense as a colonel that brought discredit to the service, he would be retired as as a Lt Col. > > Most demotions in the past have been demotions to “permanent rank” from “theater rank”. the classic example is Maj Gen Henry miller who divulged the day of the D-Day invasion. A close friend of Ike’s, he was demoted from Maj Gen to his permanent rank of Lt Col. I think you may be conflating two different situations. While it’s true that sometimes they retire people at some lesser rank, the whole “permanent rank” thing is something different. During WWII (and WWI and the Civil War, I think) there was the “Regular Army” meaning the pre-war active soldiers, and there was the “Army of the United States” which was the wartime organization that consisted of all the draftees, etc… It was not at all uncommon for someone to have held a pre-war regular army (“RA”) rank of say… Captain, and a “AUS” rank of Colonel or higher. In practical wartime terms, it meant pay, authority and positions commensurate with being a Colonel, but after the war was over, and the country demobilized, the person in question might or might not revert to their pre-war rank, which is what happened to Gen. Miller- he retired at his Regular Army rank, which wasn’t strictly speaking a demotion in a legal sense, but in practice it was. Some officers retained their wartime rank after the war, while others did not. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-army-general-be-demoted/768392/45 "2016-10-16T18:33:25Z")
Not demoted in rank but rather demoted to a less prestigious position was Lyman Lemnitzer, after Kennedy refused to act on [the last proposal approved by Lemnitzer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods). ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-army-general-be-demoted/768392/46 "2016-10-16T18:48:21Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > Military ID Cards, at least when I was in had specific dates for service ending for enlisted and no date for officers. But also officers are under more pressure to advance than enlisted, although there is some. You have a set number of “billets” at each command by rate and rating/rank They don’t have that anymore. The expiratuon date and your birthdate are the only two dates on there. They are only good for three years from issue, then you need to get another one. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-army-general-be-demoted/768392/47 "2016-10-16T22:21:45Z")
I suppose a General officer can be reassigned from Corps Commander to Sanitation Officer in Thule, but I suspect someone would force his retirement papers through. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-army-general-be-demoted/768392/48 "2016-10-16T22:26:01Z")
Well, yes, in that case he is neither demoted or fired, and retires at pay grade–which is at the end how I view OP discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-army-general-be-demoted/768392/49 "2016-10-16T23:57:07Z")
> [@bump](#): > > … > During WWII (and WWI and the Civil War, I think) there was the “Regular Army” meaning the pre-war active soldiers, and there was the “Army of the United States” which was the wartime organization that consisted of all the draftees, etc… > > Some officers retained their wartime rank after the war, while others did not. See post 18. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2016, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-army-general-be-demoted/768392/50 "2016-10-17T03:55:46Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > Not demoted in rank but rather demoted to a less prestigious position was Lyman Lemnitzer, after Kennedy refused to act on [the last proposal approved by Lemnitzer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods). I don’t know if that’s really true, considering that Lemnitzer had the longest tenure as a 4 star general in US history, and I’d also say that going from Chairman of the JCS to SACEUR isn’t much of a step down either. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2016, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-army-general-be-demoted/768392/51 "2016-10-17T15:18:39Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I don’t know if that’s really true, considering that Lemnitzer had the longest tenure as a 4 star general in US history, and I’d also say that going from Chairman of the JCS to SACEUR isn’t much of a step down either. AFAIK, JC chairs always retired from that position. Until Lemnitzer shuffled off to NATO within a year of approving Northwoods. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2016, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-army-general-be-demoted/768392/52 "2016-10-17T16:49:58Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Patton was demoted to three-star for the slapping incident in WW2. I don’t think this is correct. He spend some time without command, but he wasn’t demoted (in rank). ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2016, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-army-general-be-demoted/768392/53 "2016-10-17T17:05:42Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > I don’t think this is correct. [Patton did] spend some time without command, but he wasn’t demoted (in rank). Correct: [George S. Patton slapping incidents - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_S._Patton_slapping_incidents#Effect_on_plans_for_invasion_of_Europe) ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2016, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-army-general-be-demoted/768392/54 "2016-10-17T18:01:16Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > AFAIK, JC chairs always retired from that position. Until Lemnitzer shuffled off to NATO within a year of approving Northwoods. Sure, but why didn’t they just put him out to pasture, instead of transferring him to NATO command? ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Call_Me.Tim)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2016, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-army-general-be-demoted/768392/55 "2016-10-17T19:42:26Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Brig. Gen Jeffrey Sinclair (one star) was demoted to Lt. Colonel after a court-martial convicted him of sexual assault. Wait a minute, [Jeffrey Sinclair](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Sinclair) was removed from command of Babylon 5 to become Ambassador to Minbar, not because of a court-martial! Oh, wait, this isn’t Cafe Society. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-army-general-be-demoted/768392/56 "2016-10-17T20:17:51Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Well, yes, in that case he is neither demoted or fired, and retires at pay grade–which is at the end how I view OP discussion. Actually, let me second-thought that. Pay-grade/pension calculations only: If you are fired “for cause” is that–purely bureaucratically–a demotion? ETA: short of court-martial. I have no idea what happens to pay or pensions then. ---
**Author:** ![ganthet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de0a6/32.png) [@ganthet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ganthet)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2016, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-army-general-be-demoted/768392/57 "2016-10-18T04:13:02Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Actually, let me second-thought that. > > Pay-grade/pension calculations only: > > If you are fired “for cause” is that–purely bureaucratically–a demotion? > ETA: short of court-martial. I have no idea what happens to pay or pensions then. For officers, being relieved of their position/command for cause usually involves being shifted over to a staff position while any investigation or process plays itself out. If the misconduct or poor performance does not warrant UCMJ action, then the commander overseeing the officer can still initiate an administrative process to kick the officer out of the service through what is called a “show cause” board (as in, the officer in question must show cause why they should be permitted to remain in the military). Depending on the service, a panel can then be assembled to give the officer a hearing and the panel makes a recommendation to the general court-martial convening authority (usually the ranking general for the installation, who has the authority to separate officers from the service) about whether the officer should be separated and if so, what level of discharge they should receive. Only officers who retire (and are not dismissed through a court-martial or separated through an administrative show cause board) are subject to a grade determination that could effectively “demote” them to a lower grade for retirement pay purposes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-an-army-general-be-demoted/768392.md?page=2)