Can an army general be demoted

[bordelond]

Tangent question:

The generals and others mentioned in this thread seem to get demoted down a single rank (excepting MacArthur?).

Can high-ranking officers (not just generals and admirals, but the next few ranks below) be straight-up stripped of their commission? I guess that would be something akin to a “dishonorable discharge”? And is this essentially what happened to MacArthur?

[Elendil_s_Heir]

The President is commander-in-chief and could do so, I believe. I know of no legal protections afforded to generals and admirals that would keep the President from ordering their separation from service. There would almost certainly be litigation, especially if the officer were dishonorably discharged and lost his pension, but the courts tend to be very deferential to the President in the exercise of his duties as CINC.

But that’s not what happened to MacArthur. He was relieved of his duties but not demoted, stripped of his rank or forced from the Army: Relief of Douglas MacArthur - Wikipedia.

Here are two other relatively recent firings I found:

Michael Dugan (general)

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1665&dat=19930619&id=gUwaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=XSUEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6927,3698552&hl=en

[AK84]

@Ravenman

Forgot to mention this – in the U.S. military, grades above two-star general or admiral are tied to specific jobs. So if someone is nominated, confirmed, and appointed to be, say, Commander of European Command, that officer will have four stars for the duration of his service in that role. It occasionally happens that if someone serves poorly in a three- or four-star general position, they may end up retiring at a two-star (or sometimes lower) grade. There’s a whole complex process behind the retirement grade which I won’t bother to get into at this moment.

In the UK and Commonwealth militaries, officer ranks are divided into two types, substantive and temporary. Its possible to be a Major General and have a substantive rank of Major. Your substantive rank is tied to their regiments and their seniority within it. It makes no functional difference as to the officer’s authority, pay, pension or insignia, however s/he cannot be demoted from substantive rank, but s/he can be demoted from Temporary Rank to substantive rank.
By convention officers are given the pension of the highest rank they held.

[gnoitall]

@Elendil_s_Heir

The President is commander-in-chief and could do so, I believe. I know of no legal protections afforded to generals and admirals that would keep the President from ordering their separation from service.

In peacetime US Forces, even the CinC can’t unilaterally discharge a commissioned officer without due process, per Federal law:

@10 U.S. Code § 1161

(a) No commissioned officer may be dismissed from any armed force except—
(1) by sentence of a general court-martial;
(2) in commutation of a sentence of a general court-martial; or
(3) in time of war, by order of the President.

(b) The President may drop from the rolls of any armed force any commissioned officer (1) who has been absent without authority for at least three months, (2) who may be separated under section 1167 of this title by reason of a sentence to confinement adjudged by a court-martial, or (3) who is sentenced to confinement in a Federal or State penitentiary or correctional institution after having been found guilty of an offense by a court other than a court-martial or other military court, and whose sentence has become final.

From Cornell University Law Information Instutitute

In wartime, the President’s hand is much freer, in keeping with the general principle that Congress should not interfere with the exercise of war powers.

In peace, with the exception of an officer AWOL three months, involuntary unilateral discharge of a commissioned officer depends on Court-Martial due process.

[bump]

During WWII they typically put them out to pasture in stateside commands rather than demote them or shit can them entirely. This was due to a concept that maybe these guys aren’t a good fit for their current positions, but could be used elsewhere. Marshall and Eisenhower had a policy of rapid replacement of generals who weren’t cutting it- they sacked quite a few generals over the course of the war.

Witness Lloyd Fredendall- probably the worst combat general the nation’s ever seen. He was sacked after Kasserine Pass, and reassigned to a stateside training command, and subsequently promoted to Lt. General. If his performance in North Africa wasn’t enough to get him demoted or summarily dismissed from service, nothing would have.

Nowadays, once you get into the General ranks, it’s pretty much up or out from there; from what I gather, once an officer gets above about LTCOL, things get pretty competitive, and pretty much if you don’t pan out in your current billet, you’re expected to retire, as you’re probably already in your mid-fifties at a minimum, and have enough time in service to get full retirement at your current rank, which as a General of some sort, is a pretty sweet deal.

[AK84]

@Elendil_s_Heir

The President is commander-in-chief and could do so, I believe. I know of no legal protections afforded to generals and admirals that would keep the President from ordering their separation from service. There would almost certainly be litigation, especially if the officer were dishonorably discharged and lost his pension, but the courts tend to be very deferential to the President in the exercise of his duties as CINC.

But that’s not what happened to MacArthur. He was relieved of his duties but not demoted, stripped of his rank or forced from the Army: Relief of Douglas MacArthur - Wikipedia.

Mac was a Five Star General and his rank had been made permanent vide an Act of Congress (PL 79-333). He could expressly not be demoted.

[watchwolf49]

Brig. Gen. Jeffrey Sinclair was demoted to lieutenant colonel and forced to retire in 2014. Here’s the details published in the LA Times “Army demotes Gen. Jeffrey Sinclair two ranks for sexual misconduct”. This was done via a courts martial.

Certainly the President can remove an officer from their command; but to demote, I do believe, there has to be due process of law … either Article 15 or courts martial … and that’s true at every rank.

<nitpick ref=wikipedia> Patton didn’t become a 4-star General until the end of WWII {Cite}, he was not demoted for the slap-happy incidents. </nitpick>

[Elendil_s_Heir]

@gnoitall

In peacetime US Forces, even the CinC can’t unilaterally discharge a commissioned officer without due process, per Federal law:From Cornell University Law Information Instutitute

In wartime, the President’s hand is much freer, in keeping with the general principle that Congress should not interfere with the exercise of war powers.

In peace, with the exception of an officer AWOL three months, involuntary unilateral discharge of a commissioned officer depends on Court-Martial due process.

Ah, thanks.

[Colibri]

@jtur88

There is an impeachment process whereby even the Commander in Chief can be demoted.

What, knocked down to Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff?:dubious:

The Commander in Chief can be removed from command. He cannot be knocked down in rank while still remaining in the Armed Forces (since he’s not a member of the Armed Forces), which “demoted” indicates.

[gnoitall]

@Colibri

What, knocked down to Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff?:dubious:

The Commander in Chief can be removed from command. He cannot be knocked down in rank while still remaining in the Armed Forces (since he’s not a member of the Armed Forces), which “demoted” indicates.

Demoted to “former president”. But that’s the same as “removed from command”.

I see word-lawyering over (what I thought was) a joke.

[Pleonast]

For the purposes of 10 U.S. Code § 1161, what counts as “in time of war”?

Also, has the constitutionality of that section been tested in any courts? Congress has the power to “raise and support Armies”, but the President is the “Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy”.

[Poysyn]

@AK84

In the UK and Commonwealth militaries, officer ranks are divided into two types, substantive and temporary. Its possible to be a Major General and have a substantive rank of Major. Your substantive rank is tied to their regiments and their seniority within it. It makes no functional difference as to the officer’s authority, pay, pension or insignia, however s/he cannot be demoted from substantive rank, but s/he can be demoted from Temporary Rank to substantive rank.
By convention officers are given the pension of the highest rank they held.

Also known as “Acting/Lacking” and “WSE (while so employed)”

[Ravenman]

@Pleonast

For the purposes of 10 U.S. Code § 1161, what counts as “in time of war”?

There are various statutes where special powers are triggered by a declaration of war, others that are triggered by a state of war, and others that are triggered by a state of emergency. Just ballpark, I’d guess there’s around 80 provisions of law that have special powers related to a “state of war.”

The definition of state of war doesn’t seem to be precisely defined anywhere in the US Code, but it is certainly clear that 10 USC 1161 would be triggered not only by a declaration of war, and some set of circumstances that are less than a formal declaration of war. The boundaries of that are fuzzy, but one could speculate that an authorization of military force (such as the AUMF of 2001) would arguably suffice if the President sought to exercise one of these scores of provisions of law relating to “during a time of war.”

I do not know of any court cases that have examined this issue.

[Elendil_s_Heir]

A previous thread that may be of interest: American generals who were fired for tactical blunders? - Factual Questions - Straight Dope Message Board

[Leo_Bloom]

In this thread, unless I missed it, and the one just cited, “releaved of command” and demoted are often said in one breath; some posts have made the distinction, and the other ones have not been corrected/nitpicked, and I am left a little unclear as to clear definitions and to less-specific but equally clear ramifications:

Being relieved of command without a demotion is a career fork, to put it mildly. He or she may be “demoted” from ever getting a higher command (although perhaps there are cases), but he doesn’t have to change his collars or expect a pay cut.

But obviously being relieved for military error of one sort or another is a demotion of another sort.

[Elendil_s_Heir]

As to Truman and MacArthur, also see this: MacArthur vs. Truman: was the Constitution in peril? - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board

[Tim_T-Bonham.net]

In the US, General Officers are ‘created’ when the US Congress confirms them at the recommendation of the President. So the President can’t just remove them, they have to be convicted by a court martial.

What the President can do on their own is relieve an officer of their current command – in effect, transfer them to some other job, but leaving them at the same rank. Most of the posts here referring to “firing” a general are actually just transferring them – they remain a general.

Of course, being moved from "Commanding General of the Iraq War’ to “General in Command of Supplies” at the Podunk, Iowa base is a pretty obvious ‘demotion’, even though the person remains at the rank of General. Everybody in the Service knows it. They will never be promoted again, and will probably never even be assigned to anything except a backwater command post again. So they frequently decide to resign at that point.

(About the same thing happens in industry, at about the Vice-President level. People at that level who screw up often aren’t fired; they are transferred to some harmless job like VP of Company History. They can either sit around at that meaningless job until they reach retirement age, or resign and look elsewhere.)

[Malthus]

A famous case was Billy Mitchell.

He was both demoted from his temporary rank of General to his permanent rank of Colonel, and later court-martialed (both for attacking his superior officers in the military establishment).

Friction and demotion[edit]

Mitchell experienced difficulties within the Army, notably with his superiors when he appeared before the Lampert Committee of the U.S. House of Representatives and sharply castigated Army and Navy leadership.[3] The War Department had endorsed a proposal to establish a “General Headquarters Air Force” as a vehicle for modernization and expansion of the Air Service, to be funded through shared appropriations for aviation with the Navy, but shelved the plan when the Navy refused, incensing Mitchell.

In March 1925, when Mitchell’s term as Assistant Chief of the Air Service expired, he reverted to his permanent rank of colonel and was transferred to San Antonio, Texas, as air officer to a ground forces corps.[3] Although such demotions were not unusual in demobilizations (Patrick himself had gone from major general to colonel upon returning to the Army Corps of Engineers in 1919), the move was widely seen as punishment and exile,[3] since Mitchell had petitioned to remain as Assistant Chief when his term expired, and his transfer to an assignment with no political influence at a relatively unimportant Army base had been directed by Secretary of War John Weeks.

Court-martial[edit]
In response to the Navy’s first helium-filled rigid airship Shenandoah crashing in a storm in September 1925, killing 14 of the crew, and the loss of three seaplanes on a flight from the West Coast to Hawaii, Mitchell issued a statement accusing senior leaders in the Army and Navy of incompetence and “almost treasonable administration of the national defense.”[40] In October 1925, a charge with eight specifications was proffered against Mitchell on the direct order of President Calvin Coolidge, accusing him of violation of the 96th Article of War, an omnibus article that Mitchell’s chief counsel, Congressman Frank Reid, declared to be “unconstitutional” as a violation of free speech.[41] The court martial began in early November and lasted for seven weeks.

The youngest of the 12 judges was Major General Douglas MacArthur, who later described the order to sit on Mitchell’s court-martial as “one of the most distasteful orders I ever received.”[42] Of the thirteen judges, none had aviation experience and three were removed by defense challenges for bias, including Major General Charles P. Summerall, the president of the court. The case was then presided over by Major General Robert Lee Howze.[43] Among those who testified for Mitchell were Eddie Rickenbacker, Hap Arnold, Carl Spaatz and Fiorello La Guardia. The trial attracted significant interest, and public opinion supported Mitchell.[44]

However, the court found the truth or falsity of Mitchell’s accusations to be immaterial to the charge and on December 17, 1925, found him “guilty of all specifications and of the charge”. The court suspended him from active duty for five years without pay, which President Coolidge later amended to half-pay.[3] The generals ruling in the case wrote, “The Court is thus lenient because of the military record of the Accused during the World War.”[45] MacArthur later said he had voted to acquit, and Fiorello La Guardia said that MacArthur’s “not guilty” ballot had been found in the judges’ anteroom.[46] MacArthur felt “that a senior officer should not be silenced for being at variance with his superiors in rank and with accepted doctrine.”[42]

Billy Mitchell

[bump]

@watchwolf49

Brig. Gen. Jeffrey Sinclair was demoted to lieutenant colonel and forced to retire in 2014. Here’s the details published in the LA Times “Army demotes Gen. Jeffrey Sinclair two ranks for sexual misconduct”. This was done via a courts martial.

That’s a bit different- in his case, the demotion was a punitive thing for his actions, and an example to the rest of the Army.

If you just suck at your job, but don’t run afoul of the UCMJ as a General, one of two things is likely to happen- you’ll ride out your current assignment, and not get another one, and be expected to retire, or you’ll be removed if you’re bad enough, and expected to retire. And like we’ve pointed out, there’s historical precedent for even more lenient treatment- witness Fredendall, Orlando Ward, MacKelvie and Landrum, none of which were demoted or dismissed, and all of which went on to redeem themselves to a large extent.

Here’s an interesting article on the subject of relieving generals of duty.

General Failure

[turner]

Most of the time a General officer is demoted these days, it is in retirement. You are allowed to retire in the last rank in which you served honorably. For example, if a brigadier general was found to be committing some offense as a colonel that brought discredit to the service, he would be retired as as a Lt Col.

Most demotions in the past have been demotions to “permanent rank” from “theater rank”. the classic example is Maj Gen Henry miller who divulged the day of the D-Day invasion. A close friend of Ike’s, he was demoted from Maj Gen to his permanent rank of Lt Col.