# Can anybody really know what believers believe deep down? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 30, 2017, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-really-know-what-believers-believe-deep-down/797676 "2017-09-30T20:55:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-really-know-what-believers-believe-deep-down/797676/61 "2017-10-05T19:35:26Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > You only believe this because you happened to have been born after this particular group of stories were created. If you were born 10,000 years ago, you’d think that volcanoes, earthquakes, storms, eclipses, diseases and various other natural phenomena were punishments because various (other) gods were angry with you and required some kind of tribute or sacrifice to appease their anger. And you would not hesitate to sacrifice a goat, or a virgin, because you were absolutely certain - as certain as you are now - that that was what your god(s) demanded of you. > > You rationalize your entire belief system based on where and when you were born. Nothing more, nothing less. I’ve no doubt that deep down you want/need to believe these stories you tell yourself and others. … This is irrelevant because the universal principals (Dharma) are the same, I just use (in general) ‘Christian’ terms because I can relate them better then others and one’s that I grew up with. God does not change, same forever and the Dharma does not change. Seek and you will find is one of those. It does not state it is required to have access to a Bible, not be a Jew or Christian. All that is required is to seek - and that is across all cultures and religions. God’s part is to make sure you find. As to your assumption, and we all know what happens when we assume, the seeking does lead to what I like to call universal love - it happens regardless of religion or culture and is universal and knowable. So no it was not based on where and when I was born, as the principals were they since the start of life on earth. It is jsut through culture and religion that allows us a way of describing it, but it is not bound to religion, but bound to Love. > [@](#): > > I do wonder, if in times of true introspection, you consider the actual known facts of your reality in space and time. And if and when you do, does it give you pause when you must realize that a human/earth centered belief system based only on the (unreliably) recorded history of the last 2000 years is entirely myopic and wrong? Simply does not apply, as per my above statement. Christianity is only one of many ways to relay the message of the dharma. It is not required, but honoring it honors the work of the Son of God (and we are all that, children of God), Lord Jesus. Dishonoring it just dishonors ourselves, as if Jesus is not God’s child how can we expect to be God’s child. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2017, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-really-know-what-believers-believe-deep-down/797676/62 "2017-10-06T00:01:31Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > This is irrelevant because the universal principals (Dharma) are the same, I just use (in general) ‘Christian’ terms because I can relate them better then others and one’s that I grew up with. God does not change, same forever and the Dharma does not change. Seek and you will find is one of those. It does not state it is required to have access to a Bible, not be a Jew or Christian. All that is required is to seek - and that is across all cultures and religions. God’s part is to make sure you find. > > As to your assumption, and we all know what happens when we assume, the seeking does lead to what I like to call universal love - it happens regardless of religion or culture and is universal and knowable. > > So no it was not based on where and when I was born, as the principals were they since the start of life on earth. It is jsut through culture and religion that allows us a way of describing it, but it is not bound to religion, but bound to Love. > > Simply does not apply, as per my above statement. Christianity is only one of many ways to relay the message of the dharma. It is not required, but honoring it honors the work of the Son of God (and we are all that, children of God), Lord Jesus. Dishonoring it just dishonors ourselves, as if Jesus is not God’s child how can we expect to be God’s child. Gish gallop. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2017, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-really-know-what-believers-believe-deep-down/797676/63 "2017-10-07T22:22:29Z")
> [@jacobson](#): > > Too many people say they believe something but their actions don’t back it up. Belief is just that. Belief is not fact. Only if proven. many people who claim to be Christian do not follow the teachings of Jesus; Like: Love your enemies, return good for evil, don’t judge etc., I don’t remember Jesus saying ;“to go to Church or pray”, He did tell them how to pray, but he said " Go to your room, close the door, pray to your father in secret, he who hears in secret will answer in secret. Some Christian’s I know spend more time trying to get others to follow their beliefs than to live them themselves. And he said it all in Hebrew too. Or Aramaic. I don’t know because I wasn’t there. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2017, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-really-know-what-believers-believe-deep-down/797676/64 "2017-10-07T22:30:13Z")
Just a thought: if God is all powerful and all knowing, and if God’s way is love and forgiveness, then why can’t Satan ever be loved or forgiven? Does God need a scapegoat and so there has to one individual who can never be forgiven to be made an example of? What if God forgave Satan eons ago and it’s us that holds the grudge? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2017, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-really-know-what-believers-believe-deep-down/797676/65 "2017-10-08T00:11:26Z")
C.S. Lewis said in _The Screwtape Letters_ that if Satan found out what love is, he could reenter Heaven; IOW, God would forgive Satan if he would just repent. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2017, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-really-know-what-believers-believe-deep-down/797676/66 "2017-10-08T00:17:22Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > C.S. Lewis said in _The Screwtape Letters_ that if Satan found out what love is, he could reenter Heaven; IOW, God would forgive Satan if he would just repent. CS Lewis also had a fondness for falling in love with prepubescent girls that were almost certainly really far aware from being emotionally or mentally compatible with him in any way that would allow for a real, life-long relationship to form, so I’m not sure that his concept of love is a particularly good one to use as a measuring stick. (Cheap shot, I’ll admit, but the point remains.) ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2017, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-really-know-what-believers-believe-deep-down/797676/67 "2017-10-08T00:33:23Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > CS Lewis also had a fondness for falling in love with prepubescent girls that were almost certainly really far aware from being emotionally or mentally compatible with him in any way that would allow for a real, life-long relationship to form, so I’m not sure that his concept of love is a particularly good one to use as a measuring stick. > > (Cheap shot, I’ll admit, but the point remains.) Yes, you could especially see all that subtext in _The Cheshire Cat, the Witch and the Wardrobe_ and in _Prince Dumpty_. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2017, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-really-know-what-believers-believe-deep-down/797676/68 "2017-10-08T00:52:33Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > CS Lewis also had a fondness for falling in love with prepubescent girls that were almost certainly really far aware from being emotionally or mentally compatible with him in any way that would allow for a real, life-long relationship to form, so I’m not sure that his concept of love is a particularly good one to use as a measuring stick. 😕 Cite? In all I’ve read about (and by) Lewis, I don’t recall ever coming across such a claim. (Or are you, as **Darren Garrison** may be suggesting, confusing C.S. Lewis with Lewis Carroll?) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-really-know-what-believers-believe-deep-down/797676.md?page=3)