# Can anybody write a phonetic equivalent of this unholy terror of a Gaelic name? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 10, 2007, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-write-a-phonetic-equivalent-of-this-unholy-terror-of-a-gaelic-name/425881 "2007-11-10T06:12:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-write-a-phonetic-equivalent-of-this-unholy-terror-of-a-gaelic-name/425881/1 "2007-11-10T06:12:51Z")
It’s actually the original Irish form of my family name (which is now down to 5 letters, only a couple of which are in the original form). The name is Duibhdhiormaigh Another form of the name is Diarmada, which I am told is pronounced, very roughly, chah-ROM-a-tah, the most common evolution of which is Dermott. Is there anybody here who can field a guess as to the pronunciation of the first one or the accuracy of the second one’s pronunciation? ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-write-a-phonetic-equivalent-of-this-unholy-terror-of-a-gaelic-name/425881/2 "2007-11-10T07:31:21Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] Another form of the name is Diarmada, which I am told is pronounced, very roughly, chah-ROM-a-tah, the most common evolution of which is Dermott. [/QUOTE] Even more proof to me that Gaelic is the most fucked-up language on the planet. Sorry I can’t help you, but _DAMN_, that’s fucked up. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-write-a-phonetic-equivalent-of-this-unholy-terror-of-a-gaelic-name/425881/3 "2007-11-10T07:38:54Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] It’s actually the original Irish form of my family name (which is now down to 5 letters, only a couple of which are in the original form). The name is Duibhdhiormaigh Another form of the name is Diarmada, which I am told is pronounced, very roughly, chah-ROM-a-tah, the most common evolution of which is Dermott. Is there anybody here who can field a guess as to the pronunciation of the first one or the accuracy of the second one’s pronunciation? [/QUOTE] I think Diarmada would be pronouced _jar-MOT-a_. I am not sure on Duibhdhiormaigh, but my guess would be _duv-yor-ma_. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-write-a-phonetic-equivalent-of-this-unholy-terror-of-a-gaelic-name/425881/4 "2007-11-10T11:19:21Z")
[QUOTE=Eyebrows 0f Doom] I am not sure on Duibhdhiormaigh, but my guess would be _duv-yor-ma_. [/QUOTE] I may be wrong, but I think the “ui” and “io” diphthongs are both pronounced as a short “i”, and “aigh” at the word end is either “-ee” or “-uh” So I’d read it more like “Div-jir-mee”. We need an Irish speaker though… ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-write-a-phonetic-equivalent-of-this-unholy-terror-of-a-gaelic-name/425881/5 "2007-11-10T12:47:26Z")
I’m pretty sure that Duibhdhiormaigh is pronounced Bill. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-write-a-phonetic-equivalent-of-this-unholy-terror-of-a-gaelic-name/425881/6 "2007-11-10T13:46:45Z")
Oh, come on! It’s pronounced “Throatwarbler Mangrove”. ---
**Author:** ![bbs2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e495f1/32.png) [@bbs2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bbs2k)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-write-a-phonetic-equivalent-of-this-unholy-terror-of-a-gaelic-name/425881/7 "2007-11-10T14:05:44Z")
To be serious, how about pronouncing it “FuamatuMaafala”. (hint: not serious) And for those interested in more brain torture : [Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwll-llantysiliogogogoch](http://www.britannia.com/tours/wales/llanfair.html) ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-write-a-phonetic-equivalent-of-this-unholy-terror-of-a-gaelic-name/425881/8 "2007-11-10T14:12:07Z")
[QUOTE=bbs2k] To be serious, how about pronouncing it “FuamatuMaafala”. (hint: not serious) And for those interested in more brain torture : [Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwll-llantysiliogogogoch](http://www.britannia.com/tours/wales/llanfair.html) [/QUOTE] That is an odd coincidence. I am writing a song, for the Welsh market called \*Meet Me In Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwll-llantysiliogogogochIn \* but unfortunately I remain stuck on the first line: Meet Me In Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwll-llantysiliogogogochIn … The rhyming dictionary is no help at all. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-write-a-phonetic-equivalent-of-this-unholy-terror-of-a-gaelic-name/425881/9 "2007-11-10T14:20:22Z")
According to the highly unscientific method I learned while traveling Ireland and staring in disbelief at road signs while natives told me that the road I was looking for was the road I was standing on, and then went away and laughed at their witty prank while I staggered on in blind faith, you pronounce the first letter, ignore the middle and make a swallowing r noise or lightly trill an r/l sound instead (substitute a sloshy spit bubble sound for Welsh) and pronounce the last syllable with an accent. Which makes your name, roughly, “Darma”. But if you want to get the lilt right, say “Jesus, Mary and Joseph, Darma!” in your best Broadway Irish brogue. Which is probably totally wrong. But at least I’ve bumped the thread like an errant volleyball. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-write-a-phonetic-equivalent-of-this-unholy-terror-of-a-gaelic-name/425881/10 "2007-11-10T14:33:07Z")
[QUOTE=don’t ask] That is an odd coincidence. I am writing a song, for the Welsh market called \*Meet Me In Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwll-llantysiliogogogochIn \* but unfortunately I remain stuck on the first line: Meet Me In Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwll-llantysiliogogogochIn … The rhyming dictionary is no help at all. [/QUOTE] How about “Please please please don’t say no-no-no”. Add pleases to fit. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-write-a-phonetic-equivalent-of-this-unholy-terror-of-a-gaelic-name/425881/11 "2007-11-10T15:25:40Z")
Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch is in Gwynedd, pronounced as in “Paltrow.” But even better (though not so long) is [Llantwit Major](http://www.llantwitmajorvale.co.uk/llantwitmajor.htm). 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-write-a-phonetic-equivalent-of-this-unholy-terror-of-a-gaelic-name/425881/12 "2007-11-10T15:59:31Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] It’s actually the original Irish form of my family name (which is now down to 5 letters, only a couple of which are in the original form). The name is Duibhdhiormaigh Another form of the name is Diarmada, which I am told is pronounced, very roughly, chah-ROM-a-tah, the most common evolution of which is Dermott. Is there anybody here who can field a guess as to the pronunciation of the first one or the accuracy of the second one’s pronunciation? [/QUOTE] Diarmada is pronounced “Djeermuda” anytime I hear it. Cah-ROM-a-tah is a Klingon moon I believe. The other one is trickier, something like “doogormee” or “doovegormee”. IANAGaeilgoir however. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-write-a-phonetic-equivalent-of-this-unholy-terror-of-a-gaelic-name/425881/13 "2007-11-10T16:04:09Z")
Alternatively maybe ask [this](http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=45891517) guy. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-write-a-phonetic-equivalent-of-this-unholy-terror-of-a-gaelic-name/425881/14 "2007-11-10T18:45:39Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] Which makes your name, roughly, “Darma”. But if you want to get the lilt right, say “Jesus, Mary and Joseph, Darma!” in your best Broadway Irish brogue. [/QUOTE] As in the hit Irish sitcom _Duibhdhiormaigh and Gyllriaghrmainreg_ [pronounced “Darma and Greg”]? Seriously, why is Gaelic written absolutely nothing akin to the way it’s pronounced? You’d think they’d have noticed this over the past few centuries and fixed it. I’m still working over how Samhain rhymes with “now then”. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-write-a-phonetic-equivalent-of-this-unholy-terror-of-a-gaelic-name/425881/15 "2007-11-10T19:10:07Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] As in the hit Irish sitcom _Duibhdhiormaigh and Gyllriaghrmainreg_ [pronounced “Darma and Greg”]? Seriously, why is Gaelic written absolutely nothing akin to the way it’s pronounced? You’d think they’d have noticed this over the past few centuries and fixed it. I’m still working over how Samhain rhymes with “now then”. [/QUOTE] Yeah. And people complain about Chinese romanization being inscrutable. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-write-a-phonetic-equivalent-of-this-unholy-terror-of-a-gaelic-name/425881/16 "2007-11-10T19:24:09Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] Seriously, why is Gaelic written absolutely nothing akin to the way it’s pronounced? You’d think they’d have noticed this over the past few centuries and fixed it. [/QUOTE] Dude. Are you sitting down? I have bad news for you. They _have_ [fixed it](http://www.spellingsociety.org/journals/j22/irish.php) already. ---
**Author:** ![Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bambi_Hassenpfeffer)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-write-a-phonetic-equivalent-of-this-unholy-terror-of-a-gaelic-name/425881/17 "2007-11-10T19:38:05Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] As in the hit Irish sitcom _Duibhdhiormaigh and Gyllriaghrmainreg_ [pronounced “Darma and Greg”]? Seriously, why is Gaelic written absolutely nothing akin to the way it’s pronounced? You’d think they’d have noticed this over the past few centuries and fixed it. I’m still working over how Samhain rhymes with “now then”. [/QUOTE] It _is_ written how it’s pronounced. They just have assigned different phonetic values to the letters than English has. An example from another language I know, Spanish: V and B make the same sounds as each other, but the particular sound they make depends on what letters come before and after. B/V at the beginning of a word sound like English B, but between vowels, the sound they make doesn’t occur in English. Also, Spanish single R is rolled at the front of words, but makes a sound that most English-speakers would say sounds like D if it’s in the middle or at the end of the word. Or in German: CH doesn’t sound anything like the sound that English uses CH for. Neither do J, V, Z, or a couple of other letters. From what I understand, Gaelic is at least more phonetically written than English, what with our _rough, through, bough, cough_ and other such oddities. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-write-a-phonetic-equivalent-of-this-unholy-terror-of-a-gaelic-name/425881/18 "2007-11-10T19:59:44Z")
[QUOTE=Colophon] [Quote=Eyebrows 0f Doom] I am not sure on Duibhdhiormaigh, but my guess would be duv-yor-ma. [/quote] I may be wrong, but I think the “ui” and “io” diphthongs are both pronounced as a short “i”, and “aigh” at the word end is either “-ee” or “-uh” So I’d read it more like “Div-jir-mee”. We need an Irish speaker though… [/QUOTE] Between the two of you, I think you’re getting warm. I don’t know the language either, so until a real Irish speaker (preferably one familiar with the pre-reform orthography) shows up to enlighten us, I got out an Irish dictionary which gives IPA phonetic renderings. The pieces of this name found in there may give some clue. _Duibhe_ ‘blackness, darkness, gloom’ is pronounced approximately DIV-yuh. _Diorma_ ‘band, troop, detachment’ is pronounced even more approximately DYEER-muh or DJEER-muh. Not sure what this has to do with the name [_Diarmaid_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diarmaid), but that name is the source of the Anglicized spelling _Dermot_, as you noted. However–this part exhibits [lenition](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_initial_mutations), as shown by the change of _d \> dh_. Note that the _d_ is “slender” because it’s followed by _i_. Lenition of slender _dh_- sounds like “y.” And according to [Irish\_orthography](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_orthography) the final -_maigh_ would be pronounced “mee.” So the best educated guess I can come up with is **div-yeer-mee.** The distinction between “broad” and “slender” consonants is important in Irish phonology. Consonant quality is affected by neighboring vowels: _a, o,_ and _u_ are broad, while _e_ and _i_ are slender. That’s what a lot of the seemingly extraneous vowels are for: they show when a consonant is pronounced broad when next to a slender vowel, or vice versa. For example, the name _Seán_ is written with two vowels, but has only one actual vowel sound. The broad vowel _á_ would make for a broad _s_ in front of it–but the slender “sh” sound is indicated by inserting the slender _-e-_ in between. The accent mark always tells you which vowel gets actually pronounced. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-write-a-phonetic-equivalent-of-this-unholy-terror-of-a-gaelic-name/425881/19 "2007-11-10T20:52:53Z")
[QUOTE=An Gadaí] Diarmada is pronounced “Djeermuda” anytime I hear it. [/QUOTE] Is that often? By which I mean, is it still a name one hears in Ireland? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-write-a-phonetic-equivalent-of-this-unholy-terror-of-a-gaelic-name/425881/20 "2007-11-10T21:09:06Z")
I only ever really hear it as part of MacDiarmada as in the guy whose myspace I posted above. It’s not entirely uncommon. I could be wrong but I believe its the genitive case of Diarmuid. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anybody-write-a-phonetic-equivalent-of-this-unholy-terror-of-a-gaelic-name/425881.md?page=2)