# Can anyone become a Christian? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2003, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472 "2003-06-21T20:32:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![moejuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@moejuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejuck)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/21 "2003-06-23T16:54:54Z")
And now back to the OP. Major Kong, most christians believe that once Jesus sacrificed himself on the cross and was ressurected, then salvation was opened to anyone who believes in this occurence. There is no exclusion in Christianity in my opinion, so you and everyone else are more than welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/22 "2003-06-23T17:22:44Z")
I’m with Groucho: _ **"I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member"** _ ---
**Author:** ![Major\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Major\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Major_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/23 "2003-06-23T23:05:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Major Kong, most christians believe that once Jesus sacrificed himself on the cross and was ressurected, then salvation was opened to anyone who believes in this occurence. But is everyone really free to have a true belief? Aren’t some people predestined to saved and other to not be saved? Isn’t faith a gift of God that only God can give? And there is nothing man can do received faith? ---
**Author:** ![Major\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Major\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Major_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/24 "2003-06-23T23:06:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Major Kong, most christians believe that once Jesus sacrificed himself on the cross and was ressurected, then salvation was opened to anyone who believes in this occurence. But is everyone really free to have a true belief? Aren’t some people predestined to saved and other to not be saved? Isn’t faith a gift of God that only God can give? And there is nothing man can do to received faith? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/25 "2003-06-23T23:50:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Major Kong \* > \*\*But is everyone really free to have a true belief? Aren’t some people predestined to saved and other to not be saved? Isn’t faith a gift of God that only God can give? And there is nothing man can do to received faith? \*\* It depends what denomination you are. Christians disagree on this point. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/26 "2003-06-24T00:44:05Z")
And in a very lively way, at that! I don’t know. Faith has always come so easily to me that I have a hard time picturing living life without it. On the other hand, I know some people both here and in real life who are searching, and searching hard. It’s enough to make me wish I were a telepath so I could show them how it feels, rather than just trying to bend words to fit the shape of what’s in my mind. To me, the idea that God could intentionally choose to condemn even one person to eternal torment by not making it possible for them to be saved is _highly_ offensive. A deity who would do that is one I would not worship, no matter what the penalty. CJ ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/27 "2003-06-24T04:59:25Z")
A free will choice is only really possible when one has an adequate amount of info to choose from. Thus, I sympathise somewhat with those who claim they have not seen enough evidence to believe in God or Jesus, tho I think in many cases there is also a will not to believe which would discount any evidence to the contrary. (And I recognize they might say that my decision to consider the evidence in favor of God & Jesus stems from my already having a desire to believe.) Re election & free will, we might say that the High Priest Caiaphas willfully rejected Jesus as Messiah in spite of his miracles, but then again Jesus never reappeared to him to prove him wrong (but then again again the Apostles emerged over seven weeks later to replicate Jesus’s miracles). However, Saul of Tarsus may have never encountered the mortal Jesus but he did believe that he had an undeniable experience of the Risen Jesus- one that made a free will decision to reject him nigh impossible. This is not to clarify anything btw- I’m just throwing more mud in the puddle. You’re welcome! ---
**Author:** ![I\_Brian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c89c15/32.png) [@I\_Brian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Brian)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/28 "2003-06-24T10:30:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Major Kong \* > \*\*Or does God have to call you first and then you can choose to become a Christian? \*\* Unless you feel a specific personal urge to belief, then becoming a Christian is unlikely to make any personal sense to you. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/29 "2003-06-24T14:33:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > \*\*The Lord must be spinning in His grave at the very _thought_ of such an absurd idea. 😉 😉 \*\* That’d be kind of hard for Him to do since He’s not in the grave. 😛 He is risen, you know, and by that I mean bodily. If you happen to believe the scriptures that is. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/30 "2003-06-24T14:51:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Siege \* > \*\*To me, the idea that God could intentionally choose to condemn even one person to eternal torment by not making it possible for them to be saved is _highly_ offensive. A deity who would do that is one I would not worship, no matter what the penalty. \*\* It kind of depends on what kind of salvation you believe in. If someone can be saved without being (even nominally) Christian, than you might be able to make a case for people not being condemned from the start. But if it takes Christianity, then God is condemning lots and lots of people by allowing them to be born into non-Christian cultures. Julie ---
**Author:** ![SeGate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac8455/32.png) [@SeGate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeGate)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/31 "2003-06-24T16:28:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jsgoddess \* > \*\*It kind of depends on what kind of salvation you believe in. If someone can be saved without being (even nominally) Christian, than you might be able to make a case for people not being condemned from the start. But if it takes Christianity, then God is condemning lots and lots of people by allowing them to be born into non-Christian cultures. > \*\* I have always believed that God will not judge you for what you truly do not know. My particular brand of religion goes along with this, as well. The same issue would also touch upon children. If a baby dies, I believe that baby will go to heaven. The baby never had a chance to learn about God and make a decision to follow him. Once that child is old enough, he or she can make an informed decision. The same carries over to people not exposed to Christianity. If you are \*\*never \*\* exposed to God and Christianity, I do not believe that you are headed for hell. I like to think you’ll be given a chance to learn and decide. (And I mean “you” in the general sense, not a specific person). ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/32 "2003-06-24T16:45:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SeGate \* > \*\*I have always believed that God will not judge you for what you truly do not know. My particular brand of religion goes along with this, as well. The same issue would also touch upon children. If a baby dies, I believe that baby will go to heaven. The baby never had a chance to learn about God and make a decision to follow him. Once that child is old enough, he or she can make an informed decision. > > The same carries over to people not exposed to Christianity. If you are \*\*never \*\* exposed to God and Christianity, I do not believe that you are headed for hell. I like to think you’ll be given a chance to learn and decide. (And I mean “you” in the general sense, not a specific person). \*\* How about if you never make the decision, or if your culture believes Christianity to be a silly cult or, worse, an aggressive, violent religion that appears to support aggressive, violent people and acts? How much of an exposure is necessary before the person had a reasonable chance to become Christian? What if the missionary to my village is a bad person, and her badness is apparent to everyone? Am I still required to convert in order to be saved? Julie ---
**Author:** ![Major\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Major\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Major_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/33 "2003-06-24T19:24:54Z")
> [@](#): > > I have always believed that God will not judge you for what you truly do not know. My particular brand of religion goes along with this, as well. The same issue would also touch upon children. If a baby dies, I believe that baby will go to heaven. The baby never had a chance to learn about God and make a decision to follow him. Once that child is old enough, he or she can make an informed decision. > > The same carries over to people not exposed to Christianity. If you are never exposed to God and Christianity, I do not believe that you are headed for hell. I like to think you’ll be given a chance to learn and decide. (And I mean “you” in the general sense, not a specific person). Why do you even need Christ then? Are you saying people are not born condemned and do not need to saved? What you are saying is that the nature of man is salvation. So why do people need a savior? ---
**Author:** ![Bobby\_Roberts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Bobby\_Roberts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobby_Roberts)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/34 "2003-06-24T20:28:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jsgoddess \* > \*\*I don’t see any evidence that the Christian God gives everyone a fair shake at being saved. In fact, I’d say exactly the opposite. It isn’t a level playing field. Not even close. > > Julie \*\* A level playing field on earth has absolutely nothing to do with getting a fair shake at being saved. We are only saved by the Grace of God and it is impossible to predict how He decides to give us His Grace. So it is also impossible for you to say that we are not all given a fair chance to receive God’s Grace. The only thing you can say is that there is a great difference in the gifts, abilities, and opportunities given to us for our lives on earth, but that says nothing about being saved! ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/35 "2003-06-24T20:50:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bobby Roberts \* > \*\*A level playing field on earth has absolutely nothing to do with getting a fair shake at being saved. We are only saved by the Grace of God and it is impossible to predict how He decides to give us His Grace. So it is also impossible for you to say that we are not all given a fair chance to receive God’s Grace. The only thing you can say is that there is a great difference in the gifts, abilities, and opportunities given to us for our lives on earth, but that says nothing about being saved! \*\* If God can choose to withhold grace for something out of my control, then it absolutely isn’t a “fair shake.” If God can stick me in situations designed to test my faith while others never face such situations, that also isn’t a “fair shake.” If God can condemn me by allowing me to be born in a culture that doesn’t accept him, then that sure as hell isn’t a “fair shake.” If everyone having an equal chance is important to your faith, it takes a lot of fancy footwork to make it possible. In fact, the footwork is so fancy that it’s what has turned me into a non-believer. If God does what people claim God does, then God is cruel. Julie ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/36 "2003-06-24T21:36:11Z")
What Julie says is the truth. But what Bobby said was also valid. The one thing under your control, Julie, is to be open to the idea that there might well be a God who loves you and intends the best for you. Notice that I’m not saying “_believe_ in the idea” – that’s likewise not under your control. Belief is something that you do, but it’s based on your own experience, the authorities you trust, and what reason tells you – and if that evidence is not sufficient for belief, then you will not believe. Rather, I’m simply saying that one can bar one’s mind to the possibility of “God getting in” and that one should avoid that. That’s not rationalism; it’s pure-D stubbornness. It’s been my experience that God calls to people at different times, has an easier or harder time of getting across his life-changing agenda to them when they do listen – and that he’s pretty darn well aware of what the right time to Make the Call to you or me or **Gaudere** or **His4Ever** might be. After that, it’s a matter of trust – to, having come to know him, put your trust in him, to have confidence in him and in his goodness. ---
**Author:** ![dal\_timgar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@dal\_timgar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dal_timgar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/37 "2003-06-24T23:32:50Z")
Just claim to be a Christian and you qualify. ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2003, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/38 "2003-06-25T00:42:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\* Notice that I’m not saying “_believe_ in the idea” – that’s likewise not under your control. Belief is something that you do, but it’s based on your own experience, the authorities you trust, and what reason tells you – and if that evidence is not sufficient for belief, then you will not believe. > \*\* This is the exact reason that the answer to the thread title is a resounding “no”. Since nobody chooses their beliefs, nobody can choose to follow a different set of them. I could no more “choose” to believe in God then I could choose to believe that my mother’s name is Frank, or that the Daytona 500 is held in Sicily. If there were a god, and he established a system that gave benefits to those who believed in his existence, then were he just he would have made his existence available as a conclusion of deductive logic _a priori_, or do supernatural miracles every few days across the entire globe so as to allow inductive logic to conclude his existence _a posteriori_. IMHO, that some people are incapable of holding a belief in god is a strong argument against the Christian god (and perhaps others), as it indicates that god would be acting unjustly. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2003, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/39 "2003-06-25T00:55:00Z")
Reasonable point, **Rex** , from a single-moment-in-time perspective. But here’s my thought: I know that I’ve changed, dramatically, and become a much more pleasant person to associate with, in the years since I had my conversion experience. (I’m not particularly fond of the first few months of that – imagine **Joe Cool** at his most irritable and dogmatic, and multiply by ten! :o) But God worked on me, and in me, and changed my attitudes. Faith is one of His gifts, and He gives it when and where He will. I’m fairly confident that those choices aren’t arbitrary, but based on what the inner composition of each of us is, including what we will do in the future after “getting it.” Believe me, you would not have liked the old me – combine the worst elements of the personalities of **TheRyan, His4Ever** , and **Ryan\_liam** (none of whom I’m calling names, just identifying personality characteristics by reference to), and you’d have the person I was. From His perspective, an eternal one, He doesn’t need to zap you, or **David B** or **Gaudere** yet – and He’s letting **Mars Horizon** have a vacation from the legalistic faith he started with – you’re all pretty decent people as you are – but He’s got a lot of work to do in me, and in **His4Ever** , to make us into what He’d have us be – so he started early on us. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2003, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/40 "2003-06-25T02:10:06Z")
**Poly** , your reply reminds me alot of what CS Lewis wrote across the last few chapters of _Mere Christianity_, perhaps you’re a fan of his? (Fresh in my mind since I was rereading parts of it earlier this week.) But then your last paragraph doesn’t make as much sense. If you view it from a perspective of time not being a factor, then as CS Lewis pointed out, God would have a limitless amount of “time” to contemplate any or all individual persons, focus entirely on them for as long as he pleased, and his shifting between “working on them” would not be noticable as a temporal difference to us. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472.md?page=3)