# Can anyone become a Christian? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2003, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472 "2003-06-21T20:32:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/61 "2003-06-26T14:27:42Z")
Bobby Robert: _This is the basis of my faith and belief in God. Jesus died on the cross to save us from original sin and allow everyone to receive God’s Grace and enter into His Kingdom of Heaven. This is the basic precept of Christianity that is being discussed here._ Why is this the basis of your faith? Is it because it is in the bible or do you have other sources for your assertions? ---
**Author:** ![Bobby\_Roberts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Bobby\_Roberts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobby_Roberts)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/62 "2003-06-26T17:56:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by badchad \* > \*\*Bobby Robert: > > _This is the basis of my faith and belief in God. Jesus died on the cross to save us from original sin and allow everyone to receive God’s Grace and enter into His Kingdom of Heaven. This is the basic precept of Christianity that is being discussed here._ > > Why is this the basis of your faith? Is it because it is in the bible or do you have other sources for your assertions? \*\* If you want to argue the basic precepts of Christianity, then you probably should start another thread. My understanding on this thread is that we’ve been discussing what Christian religions believe, not why they have these beliefs. So a point of order here is that the basic precept of Christianity is that Jesus died to save us from original sin and allow everyone to receive God’s Grace and enter into His Kingdom of Heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Lilairen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lilairen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilairen)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/63 "2003-06-26T18:09:42Z")
Nitpick: A basic precept of _Western_ Christianity. Original sin is not a tenet of the Eastern Church. ---
**Author:** ![Isabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5a626/32.png) [@Isabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isabelle)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/64 "2003-06-26T18:10:12Z")
Anyone can become a “Christian”…sadly though not every one who calls themselves one is one. It’s a common misconception that the only requirement to being one is to call yourself one. Its akin to Me dressing up as a doctor, and calling myself a doctor…am I really a doctor then?..Hardly…by the same token being one, hardly qualifies one for perfection…since we all constantly make mistake…it also does not make a person any better than anyone else…those that carry on with such an air have a little bit of problem With the words pride and humility…and Dorothy, pay no attention to the person behind the current…Oz has Spoken. ---
**Author:** ![netscape\_6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8c91f0/32.png) [@netscape\_6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/netscape_6)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/65 "2003-06-27T00:14:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by badchad \* > \*\* Never mind that god allegedly created Satan too. > \*\* so you believe a bank robber’s mother is responsable for the robbery, or if you save someone’s life your responsable for what they do after that? satan is responsable for satan’s actions. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by badchad \* > \*\* Yeah, all turned out fine and dandy from Job’s perspective. Perhaps you should try looking at it from the perspective of his kids, who god allowed to be murdered. > \*\* well Job’s children, while not blameless like Job sound fine enough. Job did regularly sacrifice on thier be half. i bet they went strait to Abraham’s boosum to be comferted till Jesus’s birth and go to heaven. \*\* [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/66 "2003-06-27T02:16:06Z")
Bobby Roberts: _If you want to argue the basic precepts of Christianity, then you probably should start another thread. My understanding on this thread is that we’ve been discussing what Christian religions believe, not why they have these beliefs._ I find very little in common between what different Christians believe, and how they decide what they believe. Some take the bible as god’s word, some just make it up as they go along and just give lip service to the bible. Right now I have no idea where you fall in this and as such don’t have much of a way to direct an argument. _So a point of order here is that the basic precept of Christianity is that Jesus died to save us from original sin and allow everyone to receive God’s Grace and enter into His Kingdom of Heaven._ I imagine you got this from the bible, or hearsay from someone who read the bible. If however, you have read the bible in full you should be aware that not everyone goes to heaven or will receive god’s “grace.” In fact if the bible is to be believed lots of people won’t and again according to the bible it is not up to the people to choose but rather god who does the choosing. Since god chooses rascals who admittedly don’t deserve it (see Polycarp’s post) he is unfair and unjust. This is the opposite of Mr. Love that some Christians try to make him out to be. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/67 "2003-06-27T02:34:32Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by netscape 6_ > actually satan tormented Job. God allowed the test to see if Job only loved God becouse of his prosperous life. afterward God gave Job twice what he had before the incedent though. Most of Job’s life was pretty good. blessed up till he was tested, and lived for a hundred and forty years after the test with twice the blessings. Why would an omniscient God have to conduct a test to “see” if Job loved him? Wouldn’t God already know Job’s heart without a test? > [@](#): > > so you believe a bank robber’s mother is responsable for the robbery, or if you save someone’s life your responsable for what they do after that? satan is responsable for satan’s actions. God knew _before_ he created Satan that Satan would be evil. Therefore God _chose_ to create evil. He could have just as easily chosen not to create evil or to have created a differeent angel altogether. ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/68 "2003-06-27T02:44:41Z")
netscape 6: _so you believe a bank robber’s mother is responsable for the robbery, or if you save someone’s life your responsable for what they do after that? satan is responsable for satan’s actions._ Let’s take it up a notch. If Hitler’s mother had perfect knowledge of what her future son was going to do and had the choice of bearing him or not, then yes I think she would be to a large degree responsible for what he did. If she did not know what he would do, and in reality I’m sure she didn’t, then her responsibility would be significantly diminished if not abolished. God allegedly knows all that would transpire from his creations (unless you think he’s not omniscient) and as such bears the responsibility for them, which is why your analogy sucks. _well Job’s children, while not blameless like Job sound fine enough. Job did regularly sacrifice on thier be half. i bet they went strait to Abraham’s boosum to be comferted till Jesus’s birth and go to heaven._ Ahh, that’s so nice. I assume that’s why you encourage your kids talk to strangers, not wear seatbelts, and cross the street without looking. Heck why not drown them in a bathtub yourself as singing in heaven with the pretty angels must be so much better than this evil world. Do you really believe this way or is that just where you were willing to take the argument to avoid admitting god’s unfair? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/69 "2003-06-27T02:51:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by badchad \* > \*\*Bobby Roberts: > > _If you want to argue the basic precepts of Christianity, then you probably should start another thread. My understanding on this thread is that we’ve been discussing what Christian religions believe, not why they have these beliefs._ > > I find very little in common between what different Christians believe, and how they decide what they believe. Some take the bible as god’s word, some just make it up as they go along and just give lip service to the bible. Right now I have no idea where you fall in this and as such don’t have much of a way to direct an argument. > > _So a point of order here is that the basic precept of Christianity is that Jesus died to save us from original sin and allow everyone to receive God’s Grace and enter into His Kingdom of Heaven._ > > I imagine you got this from the bible, or hearsay from someone who read the bible. If however, you have read the bible in full you should be aware that not everyone goes to heaven or will receive god’s “grace.” In fact if the bible is to be believed lots of people won’t and again according to the bible it is not up to the people to choose but rather god who does the choosing. Since god chooses rascals who admittedly don’t deserve it (see Polycarp’s post) he is unfair and unjust. This is the opposite of Mr. Love that some Christians try to make him out to be. \*\* If you have a problem with me, **badchad** , the administration of this board does provide a forum in which you can express it. Kindly take your complaints there. ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/70 "2003-06-27T03:19:08Z")
Polycarp: _If you have a problem with me, badchad, the administration of this board does provide a forum in which you can express it. Kindly take your complaints there._ I’m just going off the framework of argument you posted earlier Polycarp. Remember when you wrote this: \*I know that I’ve changed, dramatically, and become a much more pleasant person to associate with, in the years since I had my conversion experience. (I’m not particularly fond of the first few months of that – imagine Joe Cool at his most irritable and dogmatic, and multiply by ten! Believe me, you would not have liked the old me – combine the worst elements of the personalities of TheRyan, His4Ever, and Ryan\_liam (none of whom I’m calling names, just identifying personality characteristics by reference to), and you’d have the person I was.\* Or are you now implying that you weren’t a rascal and did deserve salvation? Remember, anger’s a sin.😉 Come to think of it, I do have a problem with the way you duck out of a conversation just when it’s getting good, or should we say bad from your perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Bobby\_Roberts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Bobby\_Roberts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobby_Roberts)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/71 "2003-06-27T12:46:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by badchad > I find very little in common between what different Christians believe, and how they decide what they believe. Some take the bible as god’s word, some just make it up as they go along and just give lip service to the bible. Right now I have no idea where you fall in this and as such don’t have much of a way to direct an argument. > > I imagine you got this from the bible, or hearsay from someone who read the bible. If however, you have read the bible in full you should be aware that not everyone goes to heaven or will receive god’s “grace.” In fact if the bible is to be believed lots of people won’t and again according to the bible it is not up to the people to choose but rather god who does the choosing. Since god chooses rascals who admittedly don’t deserve it (see Polycarp’s post) he is unfair and unjust. This is the opposite of Mr. Love that some Christians try to make him out to be. \*\* Ok, fair enough. I have read through the Bible and taken a few theology courses in college. Along with that I’ve been a practicing Catholic my whole life and help to lead youth ministry classes at my church. As for you point about not everyone receiving God’s Grace, I think you missed some of the things I’ve said in this thread. My point has been that Jesus allowed is that everyone can receive God’s Grace, but that does not mean everyone will receive His Grace. I entered this discussion because of the notion of not having a fair life on earth equates to not having a fair chance to receive God’s Grace, which I disagree with. The Bible says that the last shall be first. It’s what you do with what you’re given that matters – it’s not about what you’re given. If you decide to invest your talents, then you will be rewarded. But you will not be awarded for burying your talents, no matter how small or few. ---
**Author:** ![MoronosaurusRex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e19adc/32.png) [@MoronosaurusRex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MoronosaurusRex)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/72 "2003-06-27T18:32:02Z")
To become a Christian, the first thing you need is the ability to think illogically or, preferably, to not think at all. The second thing you need is docility, to be able to follow a leader no matter what they do or say - the image of ‘Christians as sheep’ is quite accurate. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/73 "2003-06-27T22:10:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by badchad \* > \*\* > > I imagine you got this from the bible, or hearsay from someone who read the bible. If however, you have read the bible in full you should be aware that not everyone goes to heaven or will receive god’s “grace.” In fact if the bible is to be believed lots of people won’t and again according to the bible it is not up to the people to choose but rather god who does the choosing. Since god chooses rascals who admittedly don’t deserve it (see Polycarp’s post) he is unfair and unjust. This is the opposite of Mr. Love that some Christians try to make him out to be. \*\* **badchad** , from the way you talk, it sounds like you’re a Calvinist, am I right or wrong? Do you believe that God only picks certain people to be saved and Jesus only died for those certain people? Just wanting some clarification. FTR, I don’t share that belief. I believe Jesus died for everybody and all who wish to come, may come. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that **whosoever believeth** in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 I believe in God’s foreknowledge, not predestination. I believe we do the choosing. God has graciously provided the way, it’s up to us whether to take it. Course, that’s another thing you could debate on forever with both sides thinking they’re right. Am I mistaken in what I seem to be hearing from you? If so, correct me please. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/74 "2003-06-27T22:26:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > **For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.** My question is what happens to **whosoever believeth not**? Julie ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/75 "2003-06-27T23:25:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jsgoddess \* > \*\*My question is what happens to **whosoever believeth not**? > > Julie \*\* Well, my post was directed toward **badchad** and wasn’t intended to get into this. Just what the verse implies: whosoever believeth should not perish. Indicating that those who don’t believe do perish. There’s also Mark 16:16 which says _He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned._ John 3:36 - _He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him._ As I said, I had a question for **badchad** about calvinism. I don’t wish to start a firestorm, I’m simply trying to answer your question with what the Bible says. I know many here believe differently. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/76 "2003-06-28T01:14:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*Just what the verse implies: whosoever believeth should not perish. Indicating that those who don’t believe do perish. \*\* Why should we believe God? He lied to Adam & Eve, when he told them they would perish if they ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, and they did not. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/77 "2003-06-28T03:20:35Z")
**His4Ever** , FYI, _badchad_ is an atheist. He’s just framing his argument rhetorically. ---
**Author:** ![Major\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Major\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Major_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/78 "2003-06-28T04:03:57Z")
[quote] He lied to Adam & Eve, when he told them they would perish if they ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, and they did not.[/auote] Wait, Adam and Eve are still alive? ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/79 "2003-06-28T08:16:46Z")
Bobby Roberts: _As for you point about not everyone receiving God’s Grace, I think you missed some of the things I’ve said in this thread. My point has been that Jesus allowed is that everyone can receive God’s Grace, but that does not mean everyone will receive His Grace._ I suppose in theory everyone can receive god’s grace but as you say many of them don’t. Whether they _could_ or not is irrelevant to my argument just that they _don’t_ is enough. It seems clear from biblical verses (if you take that as god’s word or not I haven’t been able to establish) that we can’t force god to give us this grace but rather he does the deciding, and since Christians seem to be in consensus with the fact that nobody deserves it, those who get it are getting it unfairly, thus contradicting the notion of a fair and just god. _I entered this discussion because of the notion of not having a fair life on earth equates to not having a fair chance to receive God’s Grace, which I disagree with._ I don’t think having a fair life is what other posters were talking about, rather just the fair chance at receiving salvation. If you are born in Afghanistan to a Muslim family then your chance of receiving god’s grace (assuming god is of the Christian variety) is severely diminished, through no fault of your own, which as noted above just isn’t fair. ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472/80 "2003-06-28T09:20:08Z")
His4ever: _badchad, from the way you talk, it sounds like you’re a Calvinist, am I right or wrong? Do you believe that God only picks certain people to be saved and Jesus only died for those certain people?_ As Diogenes stated I’m an atheist (sorry). I don’t know much about the Calvinists other than what others have written on this board in that they believe in predestination. As such I would think that all Christians that hold to a literal interpretation of the bible would have to believe that. _For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life._ I think that is what much of this thread is all about. I don’t believe in god. I can’t will myself to believe anymore than you can will yourself not to. I started out Christian but my life experiences have led me to a point where believing in god, particularly of the Christian variety is impossible. I do think it would be unfair for me to burn in an eternal lake of fire considering my life experiences which have led to my disbelief were not chosen by me. Yeah, I know that according to Christian doctrine we all deserve hell, so as such I then don’t think it fair that others undeservingly get to go to eternal paradise just because the theologians they came into contact with were more convincing. _I believe in God’s foreknowledge, not predestination. I believe we do the choosing._ A lot of people believe the same. I used to make the argument that foreknowledge and predestination were the same and logically had to be the same. I still believe that but have found it simpler just to point out that the bible actually uses the term predestinate, making the point moot for those who accept the bible as inerrant. Romans 8: 29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did **predestinate** to be conformed to the image of his son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did **predestinate** , them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Ephesians 1: 4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. Having **predestinated** us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the pleasure of his will. Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being **predestinated** according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. Also His4ever, though I’m disagreeing with you, I have decided that I like you, if for no other reason that I find your views more internally consistent than certain “liberal Christians” who have developed a following on this board by telling people what they want to hear while making up their religion as they go along yet still wanting to call it Christianity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-become-a-christian/183472.md?page=5)