# Can anyone defend the Admin Syria drive? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2013, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417 "2013-09-09T16:04:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/281 "2013-09-13T16:46:10Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If he had done nothing without the blabber about “red lines” - I would certainly be quite content with his actions. Can you post the exact statement about the red line that troubles you so much? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/282 "2013-09-13T16:53:10Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Basically, no matter what he did, he was going to get hammered from the partisan crowd on the other side. I’m not convinced that’s true, but neither of us have a time machine or any way of accessing alternate realities to know for sure. At the very least, if he’d handled it better, I’m pretty confident he would’ve faced significantly less criticism. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/283 "2013-09-13T17:31:42Z")
Just some context around the time that Obama used the phrase ‘red line’: > [@](#): > > Yadlin did not, however, rule out the possibility that Assad would use the non-conventional weapons against opposition fighters. > > According to the rebels, the Syrian regime “began moving its stocks of weapons of mass destruction several months ago” in a bid to pressure the international community. > > Assad’s announcement that he would consider using his chemical weapons drew widespread condemnation from the international community. US President Barack Obama said Monday that Assad would be “held accountable” if he made the mistake of using the weapons, while British Foreign Secretary William Hague called the threat “unacceptable.” > > Israel also responded to the threat, with President Shimon Peres saying that the Jewish State will act to ensure that Syria’s chemical weapons are not a danger to its citizens. > > “The use of chemical weapons is internationally forbidden,” he said. “What do you do when someone violates the law? You fight against them. You stop them.” > > ['Syria moves WMDs, won't use them on Israel' - The Jerusalem Post](http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Syria-moves-WMDs-wont-use-them-on-Israel) ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/284 "2013-09-13T17:34:56Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Just some context around the time that Obama used the phrase ‘red line’: “Israel also responded to the threat, with President Shimon Peres saying that the Jewish State will act to ensure that Syria’s chemical weapons **are not a danger to its citizens**.” See, Peres is old and feeble and still way smarter than Obama. He drew the “red line” at exactly the right point. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/285 "2013-09-13T17:38:45Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m not convinced that’s true, but neither of us have a time machine or any way of accessing alternate realities to know for sure. At the very least, if he’d handled it better, I’m pretty confident he would’ve faced significantly less criticism. Well, we do have a somewhat similar situation in Libya where the President was bashed for not helping the rebellion and then bashed for helping the rebellion. By the same partisan opponent. Within 14 days or so. Cite: [Gingrich Calls For No-Fly Zone, Then Attacks It - The New York Times](http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/23/gingrich-calls-for-no-fly-zone-then-attacks-it/?_r=0) The rationale given for the change of heart is similar to one Terr states: we should have stayed out but once the President says something we have to “back up the honor of the US” or something. All I can say is that if the Administration manages to get Putin to own any part of the clusterfuck that is Syria that’s probably a good thing. The Russian war in Afghanistan was certainly better for US interests than the ongoing US war there. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/286 "2013-09-13T19:34:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “Israel also responded to the threat, with President Shimon Peres saying that the Jewish State will act to ensure that Syria’s chemical weapons **are not a danger to its citizens**.” > > See, Peres is old and feeble and still way smarter than Obama. He drew the “red line” at exactly the right point. First question: Are there no America citizens in Israel? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/287 "2013-09-13T19:35:28Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > First question: Are there no America citizens in Israel? Sure. Has Assad used chemical weapons on them? Or anywhere close to them? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/288 "2013-09-13T19:50:43Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Sure. Has Assad used chemical weapons on them? Or anywhere close to them? You cited this: > [@](#): > > “Israel also responded to the threat, with President Shimon Peres saying that the Jewish State will act to ensure that Syria’s chemical weapons are not a danger to its citizens.” Perez said he would “act to ensure” - he did not say he would react after an attack . But you allow Perez to be wise but Obama is a bungler for basically saying the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/289 "2013-09-13T19:55:29Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Perez said he would “act to ensure” - he did not say he would react after an attack. Ah cool logic. By the same logic, I will act to ensure you will never rob me. I can surely do that by driving by and shooting you in the head, right? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/290 "2013-09-13T20:11:39Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ah cool logic. By the same logic, I will act to ensure you will never rob me. I can surely do that by driving by and shooting you in the head, right? You did write that Perez drew the red line at exactly the right point. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Terr > “Israel also responded to the threat, with President Shimon Peres saying that the Jewish State will act to ensure that Syria’s chemical weapons are not a danger to its citizens.” > > See, Peres is old and feeble and still way smarter than Obama. He drew the “red line” at exactly the right point. And that is before something bad happens to Israeli citizens. You need now to explain why Perez’ red line was exactly right while Obsma’s was exactly wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/291 "2013-09-13T20:21:19Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Oh, I would definitely “strongly condemn” it. I’m not sure what the significant difference between strongly condemning and Red line is. But then again you guys got upset because Obama called BenGazi an “act of terror” rather than an “act of terrorism”, so I guess this makes equal sense. But as I (and XT) said before if he hadn’t made that red line statement you and others would have condemned him for not standing up to Assad about chemical weapons strongly enough. In any case it sounds like what you would do is sit on your hands and do nothing. OK that is a reasonable and popular course of action when compared to military alternatives. However wouldn’t it be better to try to get Chemical weapons inspectors into the country while you are doing nothing? Worst case scenario the inspections fail and we are delayed in taking any action. But given that your solution is to take no action I don’t see how that delay hurts us. On the other hand if they succeed in stopping further weapon attacks (and should Assad fall keeping them out of the hands of the rebels) this is a bonus that we wouldn’t have had under your do nothing policy. So I don’t see scenario in which your sitting on our hands approach would be any better than what Obama’s doing. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/292 "2013-09-13T20:35:04Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > So I don’t see scenario in which your sitting on our hands approach would be any better than what Obama’s doing. Sitting on our hands is less likely to lead to war with Iran. Sitting on our hands is less likely to get Israel rocketed by Hezbollah. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/293 "2013-09-13T21:49:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > When the war is between Al Queda and Hizbullah/Iran? Definitely. You realize, I hope, that what you are promoting is increasing the conflict between Sunni and Shia Muslims. I can only hope you are not one of those who think the entire Islamic faith is our enemy, or should be treated as such. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/294 "2013-09-13T21:55:33Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Sitting on our hands is less likely to lead to war with Iran. > > Sitting on our hands is less likely to get Israel rocketed by Hezbollah. I’m not seeing either of these, to be honest. We didn’t do anything about Syria the last time Hezbollah decided to rocket attack Israel after all. And I don’t see the likelihood of a war with Iran either way. Iran certainly was blustering…it’s one of the things they do best…but I seriously doubt that had we gone ahead with military strikes that Iran was going to go to war with the US. However, rejoice! Now we’ve given peace a chance and the ball is in the Syrians court. They could straighten up and fly right…at least wrt using chemical weapons against innocent women and children. All they have to do is go back to killing thousands of their own populace the old fashioned way and everything will be peachy. You guys should be thrilled. It’s funny that you aren’t, however. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/295 "2013-09-13T22:00:14Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m not convinced that’s true, but neither of us have a time machine or any way of accessing alternate realities to know for sure. At the very least, if he’d handled it better, I’m pretty confident he would’ve faced significantly less criticism. I’m militantly unconvinced, especially after this series of threads on Syria, that this would be the case. Personally, as I’ve said before, all of Obama’s choices were bad ones…he picked the least bad and, to me, it’s pretty obvious that we are getting everything we wanted out of this whole sorry episode. I’ve yet to see a viable alternative course laid out in any of these threads. Doing nothing, which has been the only thing put forth (along with some bizarre Machiavellian play both sides off against each other by always supporting the weaker side, as if no one would notice THAT happening even if it was a good idea), would be sort of stupid for us to do…and I don’t see Republicans or conservative types heaping accolades on Obama for that either. So, seems to me it’s a lose/lose situation in making folks fundamentally opposed to Obama happy with ANYTHING he would try and do. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/296 "2013-09-13T22:08:52Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > You did write that Perez drew the red line at exactly the right point. Yes, he did. At defending Israeli citizens. Note that Israel is not striking Syria to “degrade” their chemical weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/297 "2013-09-13T22:10:09Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You realize, I hope, that what you are promoting is increasing the conflict between Sunni and Shia Muslims. I can only hope you are not one of those who think the entire Islamic faith is our enemy, or should be treated as such. Strawman. Al Queda is our enemy. Hizbullah is our enemy. When your enemies fight, you sit back and watch, in contentment. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/298 "2013-09-13T22:15:23Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Sitting on our hands is less likely to lead to war with Iran. > > Sitting on our hands is less likely to get Israel rocketed by Hezbollah. What Obama is doing is getting Assad’s CW arsenal out of the conflict zone which is backed by Iran. > [@](#): > > Iran, China back Vladimir Putin on Syria crisis | The Australian > www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/iran-china-back… > PRESIDENT Vladimir Putin has won the support of Iran and China at a regional summit on Russia’s initiative for Syria to hand over its chemical weapons, which he said … So there’s no war with Iran under Obama’s plan. But there’s no Russian plan to rid the area of 1000 Tons with the ‘sitting on hands’ plan. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/299 "2013-09-13T22:21:25Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Strawman. Al Queda is our enemy. Hizbullah is our enemy. When your enemies fight, you sit back and watch, in contentment. And the best part is, when they fight, the \*only \*people they kill will be either Hezbollah, or Al Qaeda! Because, apparently, there are no innocent bystanders in the Middle East. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/300 "2013-09-14T00:05:13Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And the best part is, when they fight, the \*only \*people they kill will be either Hezbollah, or Al Qaeda! > > Because, apparently, there are no innocent bystanders in the Middle East. I’m sure there are, just like there are innocents killed in every war. How is that our responsibility? We don’t have the power to stop bad things from happening to people throughout the world. If we were to intervene, our intervention would almost certainly kill some innocent bystanders too. If we help Al Qaeda win, we’ll get to watch on TV as they butcher innocent Alawite civilians, burn Christian churches, throw acid on school girls, and behead folks. Does that sound appealing to you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417.md?page=16)