# Can anyone defend the Admin Syria drive? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2013, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417 "2013-09-09T16:04:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/301 "2013-09-14T00:34:29Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > If we help Al Qaeda win, we’ll get to watch on TV as they butcher innocent Alawite civilians, burn Christian churches, throw acid on school girls, and behead folks. Does that sound appealing to you? Well Chaa!!!. Then we’ll throw a 1.4 million dollar missile at an unbelievably small number of their hidy holes until then learn their lesson.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/302 "2013-09-14T00:39:49Z")
**Miller** , you simply must pay more attention to disguising your agenda of ruthless violence. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/303 "2013-09-14T00:49:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Numbers one and two are, once again, telling us what you wouldn’t have done. Hence, they are irrelevant to my question, and simply put the hamsters into needless effort. NOT doing something stupid is a course of action. It’s not irrelevant to your question. I didn’t deliberately cross the center line and kill 10 people today. I didn’t pour gasoline on the ground at the fuel pump and light it. Obama could have done what he’s good at and deliver a speech condemning it. Great deliverer of speeches. We the great nation of exceptional people do hereby condemn the use of chemical weapons by person or persons in the land of Syria. We will no longer buy the things we weren’t buying from you anyway but now we really really won’t buy them. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/304 "2013-09-14T00:51:17Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > **Miller** , you simply must pay more attention to disguising your agenda of ruthless violence. Is Miller actually the President because I don’t see any threats made by him/her. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/305 "2013-09-14T01:00:52Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes, he did. At defending Israeli citizens. Note that Israel is not striking Syria to “degrade” their chemical weapons. Protecting our allies and our bases in the region is the same as defending them. You would quibble that the purpose of degrading Syria’s CW is not to defend or protect our allies and bases in the region. > [@](#): > > Obama said in a CNN interview broadcast on Friday that chemical weapon use on a large scale would start “getting to some core national interests that the United States has, both in terms of us making sure that weapons of mass destruction are not proliferating, as well as needing to protect our allies, our bases in the region.” > > [Obama Syria Options: President Gets 'Detailed' Review, Meets With David Cameron | HuffPost Latest News](http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3810623) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/306 "2013-09-14T01:17:10Z")
So, the US caves on the first controversial issue, which is whether the UNSC resolution will contain the threat of force if Syria doesn’t comply. Now, Obama’s take is that such a resolution was never a possibility, and that the US might still strike on its own so everything is still A-OK. But the fact is, a UNSC resolution to use force is a prerequisite for almost every country on earth to support a military strike. And most Americans don’t want to go it alone on this one. Round 1 goes to Russia, China and Syria. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/307 "2013-09-14T01:25:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes, he did. At defending Israeli citizens. Note that Israel is not striking Syria to “degrade” their chemical weapons. So are you telling us that Israel has no interest in degrading Assad’s CW arsenal which is said to be the world’s third largest? So once again; Obama’s red line is exactly wrong according to you if it is to degrade Assad’s arsenal in order to protect bases in the region and allies like Israel, but Perez’s red line is exactly right when it’s to defend citizens? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/308 "2013-09-14T01:50:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, the US caves on the first controversial issue, which is whether the UNSC resolution will contain the threat of force if Syria doesn’t comply. Now, Obama’s take is that such a resolution was never a possibility, and that the US might still strike on its own so everything is still A-OK. But the fact is, a UNSC resolution to use force is a prerequisite for almost every country on earth to support a military strike. And most Americans don’t want to go it alone on this one. > > Round 1 goes to Russia, China and Syria. There is no UNSC Resolution at all if Obama didnt force Putin to agree to negotiate one by the threat of force. The original theat of force is still there. It was not through the UN, it was from Obama as Commander in Chief of the most powerful military on earth. So this is not round one by any means. And Obama’s threat to bomb Syria is still circling about on the Mediteranean Sea, waiting for the word. If Putin votes yes to open a UNSC Resolution regarding Syria, and Syria complies fully - Obama wins a huge national security trophy (much bigger than Bush getting Saddam Husseins pistol) on his watch. If Syris does not comply then the UNSC declares Syria in material breach of its disarmament obligation (Putin cannot veto a material breach by Syria). This means Syris is in violation of international law just like Iraq was for so many years. At that point Obama can justify the same attack because Syria is clearly violating international law and the UNSC is unable to enforce it because of Purin’s veto power. I trust Obama won’t do what Bush did when Iraq complied under 1441 by bombing Syria anyway if UN inspectors are finding Syrian cooperation all along the way. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/309 "2013-09-14T02:56:16Z")
A UNSC without the threat of force is nothing more than a nasty letter. BFD. Meanwhile, reports are that the Syrians have been scattering their CWs about the country. Only they know how much they have, so it’ll be interesting to see how we hold them accountable for their full stash. And, of course, the civli war rages on. The rebels, feeling let down by the US are left without allies to help them. That is, except your friendly neighborhood “foreign fighter” freshly arrived from Yemen, Chechnya, Saudi Arabia or what-have-you. Assad, I’m sure, is comfortably nursing his brandy tonight. He hasn’t felt this safe in months. ---
**Author:** ![Werekoala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7993a0/32.png) [@Werekoala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Werekoala)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/310 "2013-09-14T03:12:47Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > There is no UNSC Resolution at all if Obama didnt force Putin to agree to negotiate one by the threat of force. The original theat of force is still there. It was not through the UN, it was from Obama as Commander in Chief of the most powerful military on earth. I still, can’t believe you seriously think OBAMA forced PUTIN to do anything. Wait a minute… are you posting from an alternate universe? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/311 "2013-09-14T03:26:00Z")
> [@Werekoala](#): > > I still, can’t believe you seriously think OBAMA forced PUTIN to do anything. Wait a minute… are you posting from an alternate universe? :dubious: American warships deployed offshore Syria [http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/itea](http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/itea)… Obama brought up the subject to Putin in June at the G20 Summit to get Syria to give up its CW arsenal. Something happened that helped Tootie Pootie to make up his mind. Do you think it was Randy Dandy Paul cowering in fear at the sign of trouble that Brought Pootie to the table. In your universe what made Putin come around. He could have come around in June before all those babies were killed. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/312 "2013-09-14T03:27:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > A UNSC without the threat of force is nothing more than a nasty letter. BFD. > > Meanwhile, reports are that the Syrians have been scattering their CWs about the country. Only they know how much they have, so it’ll be interesting to see how we hold them accountable for their full stash. And, of course, the civli war rages on. The rebels, feeling let down by the US are left without allies to help them. That is, except your friendly neighborhood “foreign fighter” freshly arrived from Yemen, Chechnya, Saudi Arabia or what-have-you. > > Assad, I’m sure, is comfortably nursing his brandy tonight. He hasn’t felt this safe in months. 1441 got Hussein to proactively cooperate on longstanding unresolved issues. Remember? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/313 "2013-09-14T03:33:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > A UNSC without the threat of force is nothing more than a nasty letter. BFD. > > Meanwhile, reports are that the Syrians have been scattering their CWs about the country. Only they know how much they have, so it’ll be interesting to see how we hold them accountable for their full stash. And, of course, the civli war rages on. The rebels, feeling let down by the US are left without allies to help them. That is, except your friendly neighborhood “foreign fighter” freshly arrived from Yemen, Chechnya, Saudi Arabia or what-have-you. > > Assad, I’m sure, is comfortably nursing his brandy tonight. He hasn’t felt this safe in months. 1441 had the threat of force from a couple of member states although the UNSC itself did not authorize it unless the UNSC convened to decide if it was necessary. This one for Syria need not have the threat of force written in it. The same threat of force is circling on the Mediterranean Sea whether Congress authorizes it or not. American warships deployed offshore Syria [http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/itea](http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/itea)… ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/314 "2013-09-14T03:49:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Meanwhile, reports are that the Syrians have been scattering their CWs about the country. Reports from whom? > [@](#): > > In September 2012, the Syrian military began moving its chemical weapons from Damascus to the port city of Tartus.[20] That same month, it was reported that the military had restarted testing of chemical weapons at a base on the outskirts of Aleppo.[21] On 28 September, US Defence Secretary Leon Panetta stated that the Syrian regime had moved its chemical weapons in order to secure them from approaching opposition forces.[22] It emerged that the Russian government had helped set up communications between the United States and Syria regarding the status of Syria’s chemical weapons. Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov stated that Syria had given the United States “explanations” and “assurances” that it was taking care of the weapons.[23] On 8 December, it was reported that members of the jihadist Al-Nusra Front had recently captured a Saudi-owned toxic chemicals plant outside of Aleppo.[24] On 22 December 2012, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov stated that Syria had consolidated chemical weapons into one or two places to prevent rebels capturing them, and that recent moves that had alarmed Western governments were part of this consolidation.[25][26][27][28]\ Brigadier General Mustafa al-Sheikh, a Syrian army defector, confirmed that most of the chemical weapons have been transported to Alawite areas in Latakia and near the coast. Some chemical munitions remain in bases around Damascus.[29] > > 20.Jump up ^ “Syria transferred chemical weapons to port city last month, raising alarm bells, report says”. The Times of Israel. 9 September 2012. Retrieved 18 September 2012. > 22.^ “Syria ‘moving chemical weapons to safety’ – Panetta”. BBC. 28 September 2012. Retrieved 25 October 2012. > 23.^ “Russia helps U.S., Syria establish contact, Turkey in shock”. The Hindu. 29 September 2012. Retrieved 30 September 2012. > 24.^ “Syria warns ‘terror groups’ may use chemical arms”. Ahram. AFP. 8 November 2012. Retrieved 28 January 2013. > 25.^ “Syria’s Chemical Weapons ‘Safe for Now’”. RIA Novosti. 22 December 2012. Retrieved 29 December 2012. > 26.^ Steve Gutterman (24 December 2012). “Russia says Syria is acting to secure its chemical weapons”. Reuters. Retrieved 29 December 2012. > 27.^ “Syria ‘secures chemical weapons stockpile’ 23 Dec 2012”. [Aljazeera.com](http://Aljazeera.com). Retrieved 2013-06-04. > 28.^ “Israel vows Syria strike at any sign of chemical arms transfer January 28, 2013”. [Blogs.aljazeera.com](http://Blogs.aljazeera.com). 2013-01-28. Retrieved 2013-06-04. > > [Syria and weapons of mass destruction - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction) ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/315 "2013-09-14T04:03:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Meanwhile, reports are that the Syrians have been scattering their CWs about the country. Only they know how much they have, so it’ll be interesting to see how we hold them accountable for their full stash. If you think we should hold them accountable and you seem wary of peaceful inspections why do you oppose a punitive strike by the USA? If you don’t care or don’t think we should hold them accountable, why do you comment on the UNSC method of transfer from Syria to safe control and destruction of as many CW as possible as soon as possible? I recall your view was that you didn’t care if Iraq had weapons of mass destruction so I must assume you don’t care if Syria does too? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/316 "2013-09-14T04:08:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, really, the only pillar of your agenda is to “sit back and watch”. Effectively, do nothing. So, that’s what you got? You got “nothing”? Pardon me if I’m missing something by jumping into the middle of conversation here, but isn’t that pretty much what both you and I have been advocating? It’s none of our business, so stay the fuck out. That is to say, none of the US’s business as one country standing alone. If, in fact, the oft mentioned “international community” pulls together to “do something”, I’d be game for the US being one member of such a coalition. Playing, as it were, a minor part since no one country need push itself to the forefront of truly international effort. Just for kicks, maybe we let the French take the lead this time. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/317 "2013-09-14T06:49:07Z")
People who rejoice in hopelessness and cynicism get on my nerves. I oppose military intervention because I don’t believe it can succeed, especially under the circumstances that prevailed. Those circumstances may have changed, at this point, its hard to tell. I still don’t see any hope in military intervention, but not so much because we shouldn’t but because we won’t. We shouldn’t lead mostly because we’ve done such an awful job so far, we have too many people who hate and mistrust us. Had it not been for George and Dicks Excellent Military Adventure, perhaps we might have been better placed. Perhaps. So, lets lead. Bandages, not ammo. No lethal aid for anyone. Food for the hungry, medicine for the wounded. Suppose we don’t choose a side, just this once, try it out. Help everyone we can, ignore their affiliations. The hungry have no allegiances, the orphan has no agenda. And the powerless have no friends. Except, perhaps, us. And if not us, who? If not now, when? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/318 "2013-09-14T07:05:20Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > American warships deployed offshore Syria > [http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/itea](http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/itea)… > Obama brought up the subject to Putin in June at the G20 Summit to get Syria to give up its CW arsenal. Something happened that helped Tootie Pootie to make up his mind. > Do you think it was Randy Dandy Paul cowering in fear at the sign of trouble that Brought Pootie to the table. > > In your universe what made Putin come around. He could have come around in June before all those babies were killed. there is no “table”. Nothing Obama has suggested doing remotely affects Putin. His unbelievably small use of force is a pointless illegal exercise in futility. It doesn’t even qualify as saber rattling. Putin has thrown him a rope to help him pull his foot out of his mouth. If he doesn’t let it die a natural death then the hole gets deeper. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/319 "2013-09-14T07:14:30Z")
Isn’t that rather odd? Can you explain Putin’s actions, other than finding Jesus? Why is Putin doing this, the goodness of his, ah, heart? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/320 "2013-09-14T07:33:43Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, lets lead. Bandages, not ammo. No lethal aid for anyone. Food for the hungry, medicine for the wounded. Suppose we don’t choose a side, just this once, try it out. Help everyone we can, ignore their affiliations. The hungry have no allegiances, the orphan has no agenda. And the powerless have no friends. Except, perhaps, us. > > And if not us, who? If not now, when? How about in Sudan or Yugoslavia where we tried to limit our involvement to only providing non-military aid? The aid workers then had to stand by helplessly as the people they were there to assist were then killed anyway. In some cases, they even got to watch. Although I’ll admit you do have one new suggestion - helping everyone without regard for which side they’re on. So I guess your policy would be that after a death squad comes in and murders a town full of people, you’d want us to set up a mess tent and feed the killers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417.md?page=17)