# Can anyone defend the Admin Syria drive? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2013, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417 "2013-09-09T16:04:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/321 "2013-09-14T07:36:15Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Isn’t that rather odd? Can you explain Putin’s actions, other than finding Jesus? Why is Putin doing this, the goodness of his, ah, heart? Because it gives him prestige as a peacemaker at a time when Russia has received lots of negative publicity over its attitude towards gays and if Obama accepts the deal and agrees that part of the conditions are not arming the rebels then not only does his ally stay in power, but his ally is even further in his debt. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/322 "2013-09-14T07:39:39Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Isn’t that rather odd? Can you explain Putin’s actions, other than finding Jesus? Why is Putin doing this, the goodness of his, ah, heart? My guess is that what Putin would like is to have Syria turned over to Russia to handle. He’d agree to eliminate Assad and the top leaders of his regime. That would placate public opinion - the people that used chemical weapons were punished. In return, Russia would get to install a new regime that would remain subservient to Russia. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/323 "2013-09-14T07:40:19Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > How about in Sudan or Yugoslavia where we tried to limit our involvement to only providing non-military aid? The aid workers then had to stand by helplessly as the people they were there to assist were then killed anyway. In some cases, they even got to watch. > > Although I’ll admit you do have one new suggestion - helping everyone without regard for which side they’re on. So I guess your policy would be that after a death squad comes in and murders a town full of people, you’d want us to set up a mess tent and feed the killers. No doubt you have a better plan, one vastly superior to my fuzzy idealism. Now would be a good time to astonish us. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/324 "2013-09-14T07:57:15Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > No doubt you have a better plan, one vastly superior to my fuzzy idealism. Now would be a good time to astonish us. There are two options: 1. Go in and stop the fighting. 2. Stay out of it. A half-assed involvement is worse than no involvement. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/325 "2013-09-14T08:08:16Z")
Please have the modesty to accept that simply because you cannot see more than two options, then only two options exist. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/326 "2013-09-14T08:24:22Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Isn’t that rather odd? Can you explain Putin’s actions, other than finding Jesus? Why is Putin doing this, the goodness of his, ah, heart? The Putin-Bested-Obama mob here must not have yet grasped the new global realities of the New World Order that Putin apparently concerned himself with in 2000 and expressed solutions to the world during a visit to India. In the following report you must consider that Clinton did not have Authorization from Congress when he bombed Yugoslavia. But first John Mace confirms bombing Yugoslavia was not about a ‘threat’. > [@](#): > > "Was Yugoslavia a threat to the US when he spent almost 3 months bombing the bejesus out of part of that country?” -John Mace 02-19-2013 09:59 AM. Hubris-050a0959 > [@](#): > > While most Russian efforts to counter US hegemony have focused upon diplomatic initiatives, Russia’s negotiations with the European Union have touched upon military cooperation in response to NATO’s expansion. President Putin has supported the idea of a greater Europe, “in which there should be no hegemonism of any kind.” > > The dangers of an expanded NATO, supporting the barbarism of the **New World Order** , have already been dramatically\*\* illustrated by the US actions against Yugoslavia.\*\* For all practical purposes, NATO took over all the essential functions of the UN, in fact, replacing the UN. The ensuing Dayton Agreement (modeled after the Platt Amendment in regard to Cuba) created a virtual American protectorate in Bosnia. > > **Russia’s Active Foreign Policy Strategy for Multipolarity** > Russia has reinvigorated its relationships with Libya, Iraq, North Korea, India and China, pursuing an active foreign policy strategy, and establishing economic partnerships with these nations. Putin’s recent visit to India highlights these significant strategic shifts. It was the first visit to India by a Russian President in nearly eight years, and resulted in a series of seventeen agreements on economic matters, nuclear energy and defence. > > A joint statement issued during Putin’s visit indicated that he and Indian Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee are both looking to each other as a counter to aggressive interventions around the world by the US. As Putin noted in an interview in India Today magazine: “It is in our interest to have a strong, developed, independent India that would be a major player on the world scene. We see this as one of the balancing factors in the world.” The joint declaration stated a preference for “a multi-polar global structure” and opposed the “unilateral use or threat to use force in violation of the UN charter, and intervention in the internal affairs of other states.” > > [http://www.newdawnmagazine.com.au/Articles/Russia\_vs\_New\_World\_Order.html](http://www.newdawnmagazine.com.au/Articles/Russia_vs_New_World_Order.html) Putin must realize that Clinton didn’t need the Approval of Congress and Clinton was never impeached for bombing a country for three months without authorization from Congress or the UNSC. Why would anyone think that Putin trusts that Obama is any different just because some Republican Senator Schmuck from Kentucky who’s pappy is an isolationist nutjob and Congressman from Texas doesn’t want Obama to do it? Have you ever seen such out of touch arguments presented by so many who think they got an air tight case sewn together just because Rush and Sean can mouth it loudly all day long… Putin spanked Obama. It’s crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/327 "2013-09-14T08:30:03Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Please have the modesty to accept that simply because you cannot see more than two options, then only two options exist. Of course there are other options. But you asked for better ones. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/328 "2013-09-14T08:33:47Z")
Not to change the subject too much, but does anyone remember when Putin did actually spank Bush and NATO when Georgia’s Sakashvilli began shelling Russian troops and South Ossetians during the Olympic games in Beijing. Sakashvilli eating his tie he was scared shitless… Now that was when Putin really ‘bested a US President’ as the Russian tanks rolled down The GW Bush highway in Georgia. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/329 "2013-09-14T08:41:24Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > What about the people of Syria? Don’t they deserve something out of all of this? What about a negotiated deal that requires effort to make a peace and let the political process play out? > > Seems like the only ‘play’ US is interested in is the bombs and killings play. > > Which only confirms my earlier claim – the goal is to destroy any resemblance to functioning society (another Iraq & Libya) and just let it bleed on the side of the road. And then, come back in a year or so and wonder what prevents these Arabs from forming a democracy. Except that Libya is a functioning society and the Syrian people are out there currently fighting for their freedoms in the streets and the fields. If the US just wanted to bomb, they’d have done so by this point. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/330 "2013-09-14T09:13:47Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > there is no “table”. Nothing Obama has suggested doing remotely affects Putin. His unbelievably small use of force is a pointless illegal exercise in futility. It doesn’t even qualify as saber rattling. Putin has thrown him a rope to help him pull his foot out of his mouth. If he doesn’t let it die a natural death then the hole gets deeper. Somewhere between June and September something brought Putin to the table. What could it be? A red line was crossed… Obama sent the ships to the region… Putin has a black eye for providing support for the dictator who gassed (or his top officers gassed) innocent men women and children… UN inspectors come out pointing blame on Assad to two previous gas attacks … Putin could suspect ‘unbelievably small’ is relative and for the US Public to hear not him… Putin knows Obama bombed Libya without Congress’ approval… Putin knows Obama tripled the number of US troops in Afghanistan against the will of many in his base… and Obama quadrupled Bush’s numbers on the use of drone strikes in several terrorist infested parts of the world… Putin can’t see Obama as weak and indecisive about using military force like the American right imagines he is… You say none of this affects Putin… Could you please walk us down that illogical path, pointing out some features as we go. After all I’ve provided all that to you, and on top of all that, could you make an argument that would explain how even the ‘bluff’ of threatening to use force if you wish to enjoy that thought, could have hurt the cause to bring Putin to the table to negotiate a UNSC resolution that might get all or most of Assad’s CW arsenal out of the midst of a civil war where they could otherwise get out of control on a large and lethal scale? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/331 "2013-09-14T13:42:50Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > People who rejoice in hopelessness and cynicism get on my nerves. That is understandable. > [@](#): > > I oppose military intervention because I don’t believe it can succeed, especially under the circumstances that prevailed. Those circumstances may have changed, at this point, its hard to tell. I still don’t see any hope in military intervention, but not so much because we shouldn’t but because we won’t. > > We shouldn’t lead mostly because we’ve done such an awful job so far, we have too many people who hate and mistrust us. Had it not been for George and Dicks Excellent Military Adventure, perhaps we might have been better placed. Perhaps. > > So, lets lead. Bandages, not ammo. No lethal aid for anyone. Food for the hungry, medicine for the wounded. Suppose we don’t choose a side, just this once, try it out. Help everyone we can, ignore their affiliations. The hungry have no allegiances, the orphan has no agenda. And the powerless have no friends. Except, perhaps, us. > > And if not us, who? If not now, when? The refugee situation isn’t getting anywhere near the press that this CW curflufle is getting. Fully 1/3 of the population is either displaced or living in refugee camps in surrounding countries. I agree we should do more to help them. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/332 "2013-09-14T13:45:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Isn’t that rather odd? Can you explain Putin’s actions, other than finding Jesus? Why is Putin doing this, the goodness of his, ah, heart? I think Putin is more afraid of accelerating US aid to the rebels than he is of the “unbelievably small” air strike. His motivation is primarily that he wants Assad, or a Russian-friendly government, running things in Syria. I could be wrong about the first sentence, but is there anyone here who would doubt the second? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/333 "2013-09-14T14:50:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think Putin is more afraid of accelerating US aid to the rebels than he is of the “unbelievably small” air strike. We and others have been aiding rebels for some time. The actual threat of military action is a recent development. I have to go with military action as the primary fear in Putin’s bare chested heart. Of course he doesn’t like the aid to the rebels but the Saudis are doing that too. Putin’s Soviet Union had a bad experience in the past when the Saudis financed an insurgency against it as you might recall. And another argument against John Mace’s suggestion is that any air strike that degrades even a minor aspect of Assad’s military is aiding the rebels. Remember what Kucinich said and the right wingers took it to their airwaves? Obama will become Al Qaeda’s Air Force when bombing Assad’s military assets. Is the Putin-Spanked-Obama mob coming around to the reslity that it is the other way around? Mace seems to be conceding that there was some kind of Obama induced fear that got to Putin last week. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/334 "2013-09-14T15:15:23Z")
Obama wanted air strikes on Syria, The only way he was going to get permission from Congress would be if he significantly stepped up military aid to the rebels. The senate resolution that seems like a distant memory now had that embedded in it. > [@](#): > > The Senate Foreign Relations Committee voted to authorize President Obama to use limited force against Syria Wednesday, after adopting amendments from Sen. John McCain designed to urge Obama to “change the military equation on the battlefield.” The last thing Putin wants is an equation change on the battlefield that puts Assad in jeopardy. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/335 "2013-09-14T15:17:53Z")
Too bad Obama can’t peer into Putin’s soul like GeeDubya. Or perhaps he can but doesn’t want to, for reasons of mental hygiene. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/336 "2013-09-14T15:30:40Z")
Maybe if they went bare-shirted horseback riding together, they could solve this whole thing in an afternoon. (If you haven’t watched this week’s Bill Maher show yet, you should.) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/337 "2013-09-14T15:34:48Z")
Can’t stand him. Frequently, the things his writers put in his mouth are pithy, acute and intelligent. But I can’t stand him. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/338 "2013-09-14T15:46:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Can’t stand him. Frequently, the things his writers put in his mouth are pithy, acute and intelligent. But I can’t stand him. If you’ll watch this week’s show, I’ll promise to sit through and entire hour of Rachel Maddow. I’ll be shocked if you don’t get well over your daily dose of laughs. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/339 "2013-09-14T15:54:18Z")
A swan’s neck, a girlish giggle, and a mind like a steel trap. What’s not to love? Granted, she lacks the raw sexual energy of Elizabeth Warren, but still… ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/340 "2013-09-14T15:55:22Z")
Why do we foreclose all options so early? I understand and agree with the restraint. I don’t think we should do more than surgical strikes either (if that). But why tell Syria this? Take the public position that we are Pissed Off and hint that we may actually nuke Damascus if we aren’t listened to. (Okay maybe not that far). But don’t start out saying that we will hit with a flyswatter, and if provoked, hit with a flyswatter again! It’s like playing poker and showing that you have a three of a kind and asking your opponent to beat it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417.md?page=18)